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Hi,

Am hoping for some advice on the PCN received from Haringey Council for a 52(M) on the junction of Gordon Road and Bounds Green. I believe that this has caught out a few people in the past. I read the forums for the past experiences but this one:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-failing-to-comply-with-certain-types-of-vehicle-gordon-rd-n11-(ne/

does not apply anymore as the PCN language has now been changed in my case :-(. I took almost the exact same route as the poster here except that I came from the other side of the road from Bounds Green station onto Woodfield Way and there are no advanced signs of the restrictions in place if you turn into Woodfield Way from the station (unlike his case where there was a very small one on the way from the opposite end). I have attached the route I took and PCN with personal details redacted as advised.
 
I was picking up my elderly mum who was visiting her friend who had recently lost her husband and it is my first time driving in this area so I was just following the sat nav unfortunately. We had parked on Woodfield way facing in so the sat nav navigated the route shown attached. There were no signs turning onto Woodfield Way from the main road indicating I could not go in there so I just parked without any second thought.  When I left at no point do I recall seeing the restrictions warnings on turning into Gordon Road from there either (but I cannot be 100% sure about this) or while I was on Gordon road all the way upto the junction in question. By then it’s too late as I was already at the junction. I looked at Google street view which is dated Sep 2024 and it shows no signs along the way either right upto the junction so there was no way I could have known until the last second.

Also, the video marks the offence as the moment I turned. Hence my car being on Gordon Road itself is not the reason the PCN was issued ? So the sign does not mean that road is for only resident permit holders and bicycles right ? Does that mean I should have stopped, reversed and turned back onto the road and found another route onto Bounds Green Road ?
So basically any vehicle can drive on that road right upto the junction as long as they don’t turn left or right ? Sorry for the q’s, just trying to ensure this doesn’t happen again. Still confused as to the point of the restrictions if any car can drive on both roads (as Bounds Green road itself has no vehicle restrictions) unless it’s to ease traffic congestion perhaps to stop people turning in, in which case just mark it as a simple no entry.

In any case, moot points as in the end I accept that strictly speaking I am to blame here. Simple reason is that I did not interpret that sign as saying no left or right turn was allowed by a motor vehicle, (perhaps my brain was looking for the more usual no entry or no left/right sign instead or maybe I (incorrectly) thought it related to only parking access, who knows when you have to make real time quick decisions like this). I was too busy keeping below 20 and following the sat nav in an unfamiliar area to decipher that sign in that split couple of seconds I had as I knew Bounds Green road was open to all vehicles. I should have just stopped completely for a minute to read the sign properly and figured out what it meant and what I had to do next. Lesson learned.
   
The car is leased (am not the RK) so the hire company had sent a notice to me last month saying they have passed my details onto the council. I presume they just ticked box D i) and ii). I received the revised PCN yesterday. My lease says that I am liable to pay any such charges (along with their £20 admin fee which I have already paid). Is there any grounds for appeal or technicality with it being a leased vehicle (ie incorrect wording, paperwork etc) that I should look out for ? And the fact that there is no advanced signage leading upto the junction, does that matter ? It really seems unfair that there is no notice of the restriction until the very last metre of my route and at that point the safest way to exit the zone is forward rather than trying to find the reverse way out of an unfamiliar area.

If there is nothing to be done then I’ll pay the fine in 10days time when its due but I’d rather give that little extra saved money to my local hospice as I’ve been doing than hand it over to the council if it can be helped as its a genuine error. Any advice is much appreciated. Thank you so much to all in advance.


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Hi - Wondering if anyone has advice on the above ? Many thanks

So here is the approach for your RH turn into Gordon Road: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/63jHNjfR3QCh9xPp8
It is just a NRT sign, with two signs below with exceptions, and is right opposite the turn, so you get no warning, but you don't with most NRT signs anyway. The two "Flying Motorbike" signs also seem prominent enough to me to be seen as you approach too. For me, the signs look adequate enough to meet their duty under Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (aka LATOR).  ANyway, here is the full text if you want to have a read: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents

My apologies! I didn't look closely enough at the photo on the PCN which having now done so, shows your car indeed turning left into Bounds Green Road. However, this does then beg the question of how did you miss these two very prominent signs ?

Looking at your route, unfortunately GSV is not sufficiently up-to-date as one tootles along virtually. Whilst the two signs you passed as you turned out into Bounds Green Road are there, (GSV = September 2024), and also all of your move along Dunsford Road, when you turn into Woodfield Way, GSV is June 2022. HOwever, the view across to Woodfield Way from the GSV Sept 2024 view shows no Flying Motorbike signs, so one has to assume the restricted zone starts some way into the streets there. Only a look with a camera can decide whether signs are missing or not, but even it they are missing, your contravention is for the left turn into Bounds Green Road passing the two restriction signs.

Sorry I can't assist you further. It must be a nightmare driving in London. Main thing, though - never rely on a satnav in London !

Thought I'd have a quick read of the Systemic PCN flaws spreadsheet and Haringey's previous faults and have now made representations based on the technicality referred to here. Reading a few of Haringey's cases it seems that they have been won on appeal recently based on this.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54378/#msg54378

@Hippocrates Thank you for your wording which I used verbatim in my reps without adding anything else as stated ticking no contravention occurred and with no mitigating circumstances mentioned in my wording.

I hope they accept the reps. I was ready to pay tonight (grudgingly) but something was still irking me that there was no advance notice of the restriction on my route at all until I was cornered at the last second with nowhere to go whereas the approach from the other side had clear no left/right turns signs beforehand on both sides. It should be standard on both approaches surely. A bit of principle of fairness here as well.

Let see. I know they are most likely to reject but I did not mention the other cases as @Hippocrates said not to in one of his posts so will have to figure out how to appeal when the time comes and try and be successful, though am dreading that tbh! I hope someone here is kind enough to help when the time comes.

The car is leased (am not the RK) so the hire company had sent a notice to me last month saying they have passed my details onto the council. I presume they just ticked box D i) and ii). I received the revised PCN yesterday.

Not again!

The hire-company MAY NOT make lawful reps under 'D (i) and (ii)' because the  vehicle is NOT subject to a 'hiring agreement'.

The law defines a 'hiring agreement' as being one which is for less than 6 months. Yours is a lease (I'm presuming for longer than 6 months).

Your grounds of reps (too late now) should have included 'I was not the owner'.

If the lease company made reps under the 'we are a hire-company', then you should be in the clear at adjudication, should the matter get this far.

Thank you very much for your insight. Yes, it is longer than 6mths (1yr). Funnily enough I did think about the "its a lease vehicle" angle as I got out of a parking ticket once because they had not sent a copy of the lease/hire agreement with the ticket as they are legally obliged to do and they promptly cancelled . But I did not see any similar arguments made here in my forum searches and did not receive any such advice in this case when I first posted so I deferred to the experienced amongst here in thinking it did not apply.

But.....I did take a screenshot of my reps when I made them and I remember being careful and ticked "Not the owner of the vehicle at the material time" box and stated "I am not the Registered Keeper....." which is legally true. See attached. But they have obviously ignored this and rejected and doubled the charge anyway.

Do you think there is sufficient grounds here for your argument to still apply and win on adjudication given they ignored my stipulation that I am not the RK/Owner ? Or as you said its too late now ? I am also hoping that @Hippocrates if he has time can opine on the previous faults argument above so maybe there are 2 grounds for cancellation.

You do know the PCN is flawed, which should give you a good chance at adjudication.

Given that any hearing would likely be some weeks away, I suggest you submit a Subject Access Request to the council for copies of the documents from the registered keeper by which they claimed to be relieved of liability as registered keeper.