Author Topic: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7  (Read 1330 times)

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Hello,

I am hoping someone can help me. I received a Penalty Charge Notice in the post regarding a contravention of me being in a bus lane. I cannot remember the times that were visible if they were at all and I was turning left but there was traffic ahead and the car ahead stopped a little earlier. is there anything that can be done regarding this? Is there a way I can appeal as it was literally at the end of the lane.

PCN NUMBER: GR2280780A
VRN: MA10 GCF

Video of contravention: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cZWq0xrSvIGxbix1RQErc5Icu2FQ55zT/view?usp=sharing
Location (I think): https://maps.app.goo.gl/qQENHeeEhAUBCNGy9

Would appreciate help here on how I might be able to appeal this.
Thank you
cc: @cp8759

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2025, 06:42:26 pm by josephalabi »

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Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name & address.

Looking at the video, one can see a pole on the opposite carriageway just behind a bus. If one measures the distance from this point on your side of the road to the end of the bus lane, you drove in the bus lane for about 18 yards. At one time you might have got away with this at adjudication on de minimis grounds, but I don't think this wins nowadays. Nothing to stop you trying of course. And of course if you take them to London Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play.

HOwever, this may not be the end of the matter, as there may be a 'technical' appeal based on Greenwich mismanagement of the enforcement process, or a fatal error in the PCN (much rarer now).

Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name & address.
I have uploaded everything I have now, thank you

Looking at the video, one can see a pole on the opposite carriageway just behind a bus. If one measures the distance from this point on your side of the road to the end of the bus lane, you drove in the bus lane for about 18 yards. At one time you might have got away with this at adjudication on de minimis grounds, but I don't think this wins nowadays. Nothing to stop you trying of course. And of course if you take them to London Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play.

HOwever, this may not be the end of the matter, as there may be a 'technical' appeal based on Greenwich mismanagement of the enforcement process, or a fatal error in the PCN (much rarer now).
Thank you for your feedback - would you say it's worth appealing on these grounds? If so, is there anything specific I should mention in the appeal as I am unsure.
Thank you for your help.

Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name & address.
@cp8759 have you been able to look at this for me?
Thank you

@josephalabi code 34 PCNs in London are all open to technical challenges, and it's not as if Greenwich would properly fight an appeal anyway, half the time they don't even put any evidence in.

For now just make a one line representation saying that the alleged contravention did not occur, Greenwich will reject but you have to go through the motions.

The TMOs are:

The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) Traffic Order 2001
The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) (Amendment No. 12) Traffic Order 2014

In the meantime I'll check for other amendments.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Also, there is no evidence of a 958 warning sign or 959B signage passed. I would take this all the way. The last two won, they did not attend either. The 14 days is immaterial.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Thank you @cp8759 and @Hippocrates

I used ai to draft an appeal could you help me look below and see if its okay

RE: Appeal Against Penalty Charge Notice [PCN Number]
Dear Sir/Madam,
I write to formally contest the Penalty Charge Notice referenced above, issued by the London Borough of Greenwich. I submit that the alleged contravention did not occur, and the PCN should be cancelled forthwith for the following reasons:

Non-Compliance with Statutory Traffic Management Orders

The enforcement of the bus lane restriction relies upon The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) Traffic Order 2001 and its subsequent amendment, The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) (Amendment No. 12) Traffic Order 2014. I submit that the requirements set forth in these Traffic Management Orders (TMOs) have not been satisfied in this instance.

Inadequate Signage

There is a statutory requirement for clear and proper signage to be displayed in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. Specifically:
a) No evidence exists of a Diagram 958 warning sign being present at the required distance before the restriction.
b) There is an absence of the mandatory Diagram 959B signage past the point of the alleged contravention.
The absence of these prescribed traffic signs renders the restriction unenforceable, as per the principles established in various Traffic Adjudicator decisions, including but not limited to Herron v London Borough of Lambeth [2014] EWHC 1963 (Admin).

Burden of Proof

The burden of proof lies with the enforcement authority to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that:

A contravention occurred
The relevant TMOs were properly made and are in force
All prescribed signs and road markings were in place and clearly visible

I submit that Greenwich Council cannot discharge this burden of proof in this instance.
Legal Precedent:
The importance of proper signage has been consistently upheld by the courts, as exemplified in Parking Committee for London v The Parking Adjudicator [2007] EWHC 1372 (Admin), where it was held that inadequate signage renders enforcement invalid.
Request for Resolution:
Given the above submissions, I respectfully request that:

The PCN be cancelled immediately
Written confirmation of the cancellation be provided
All enforcement proceedings be terminated

Should the Council wish to maintain this PCN, I require:

Evidence of compliance with the relevant TMOs
Photographic evidence of the required signage in situ
Certification that all signage meets the prescribed requirements

I reserve the right to add to or amend these grounds of appeal and to introduce additional evidence as it becomes available.

Thank you.

@josephalabi this AI generated crap is a complete pile of BS and it is wrong for more reasons than I have time to list.

As I said, make a one line representation as follows: "There was no contravention of a prescribed order".

You don't need to add anything: the council will reject no matter what you say but that's not a reason to put in a pile of nonsense (including made up cases that don't actually exist).
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Excellent but far too long.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Hi @cp8759
Okay - thank you for confirming. I have gone ahead to appeal with the one line you provided. Should i come back here once they have responded?

Thanks

Hi @cp8759
Okay - thank you for confirming. I have gone ahead to appeal with the one line you provided. Should i come back here once they have responded?

Yes, please post up the rejection when you get it.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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I've had confirmation that there are no other amending orders for this bus lane.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hi,

Does this mean that there are no other grounds of appealing/contesting this PCN? I received the attached letter and want to understand if I should just pay or make another representation.

Thank you for your assistance.
@cp8759

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