Author Topic: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way  (Read 5878 times)

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There was a PCN attached to the windscreen, I challenged it immediately as I was parked on the road not the footpath. I sent in an image of ordnance survey showing this is carriageway, but I have received a letter saying that the PCN was correctly issued as the area I was parked in is classed as footway.

Is there anywhere I can get a definitive conclusion on whether it is path or road? It is an access point for vehicles, it is the same surface as the road and a different surface to the path, and it is marked on ordnance survey as carriageway.

















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« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 11:01:58 pm by cp8759 »

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Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #1 on: »
I'm trying to make my mind up over this.
Back in 2014 it was definitively a carriageway, complete with DYLs and give way markings.
These disappeared when new tarmac was laid.
And the building development has since been completed.

It now seems like a vehicle crossover, which is not part of the carriageway.
However, I suspect that this a CPZ and fails in that "all parts shall be marked with yellow lines or parking bays"
Not in the sense that Herron tried to claim in Sunderland but immediately, this is a patch of highway where its purpose is not obvious.
Further opportunity to mislead with the no entry sign, which would normally, though not always, be on a carriageway.

The buy a plan picture...where does this come from?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 05:33:48 pm by DancingDad »
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Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #2 on: »
Buy a plan is an ordnance survey map. It is an access point but only when the bollards behind are dropped. It's definitely not a path though, that runs along behind and then a crossing to the left of it. Pedestrians would have no reason to be on here.


https://imgur.com/a/YFiwrkx
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 05:19:27 pm by summer day »

Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #3 on: »
If it's not a carriageway, why have they retained the No Entry sign ? Either way they fail the test of making restrictions clear to the motorist.
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Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #4 on: »
It's carriageway not a footpath/grass verge it is not an urban carriageway that was removed from the contravention years ago. also the consideration is pants you did not make a plea for mitigation, rather you claimed that no contravention occurred

When the NTO turns up i would make the same challenge again for if they respond in the same manner it would be a failure to consider
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I've received the NTO today, do I just appeal again?

Please post up all sides of the NtO - redact only name & address.

This is the NTO



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And the rest of the NtO?

OP, you posted: I've received the NTO today, do I just appeal again?

If you mean do you make reps, then the answer must be yes. If you also mean do you submit the same ones then the answer is no.

Before this, pl post the rear of the PCN(which we've not seen) as well as the NTO as requested by others.

And get your camera out and do some legwork. 1-year old GSV is no substitute for current data.

What are you trying to establish? That where you were is not footway, and therefore the contravention did not occur.

How? By showing that all the visible markings would lead a reasonably diligent motorist to conclude that the location was not footway.

My suggested approach?
Take photos of this part of the road and argue that it is clear from these that the footway is delineated by the railings(and gardens) on one side and a line of inlaid stones on the other. This configuration also marks the location of the alleged contravention.
You would also show that the council intend that the stones represent the edge of the carriageway because either side of the location they have been used by the council specifically for this purpose. Your photos would show the parking places signed by the council whose boundaries are marked by white dashed lines to the front, kerbstones to the side and the inlaid stones to the rear.
Either the council intend that this line of stones - which your photos would show runs uninterrupted as far as the eye can see - is the edge of the carriageway(and the boundary between the carriageway and footway) or that the parking places have no rear limit and extend to the buildings to the rear and that vehicles may park lawfully on what otherwise is used by pedestrians as footway.

Such a construction would be absurd.

The rear boundaries of these parking places are the inlaid stones(which the Traffic Signs etc. Regs permits);
Your car was parked on the carriageway side of these stones and therefore on what the council accepts as carriageway in its traffic orders for these parking places;
The authority is bound by the council's orders and cannot adopt a different definition which they are seeking to do by demanding a penalty. 

Just some thoughts.
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Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #10 on: »
I live in the north east so getting down there to take more photos will not be possible. Yes, I want to argue that it is not footway.

I've attached the backs of the pcn and NtO

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« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 06:38:23 pm by summer day »

Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #11 on: »

I live in the north east..

But you must have been there for a reason, visiting friends or whatever? If not, why did you assume it was footway.

If you or someone else cannot get photos to support the argument I suggested then I cannot help on this point. IMO, at some stage you would need to bolster the argument with contemporaneous evidence. 

Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #12 on: »
We have several members in London so maybe one of them can help?

If not, I'm in London on the 26th but I'm not entirely clear on what HCA is looking for in terms of photos.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #13 on: »
I've gone on to start the challenge a friend is taking the photos today.

I've attached the options I have for my challenge, is it "my vehicle was not outside of the bay", or "Any other reason"?

Either option takes me through to a page to register my mitigating circumstances!





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Re: Greenwich - Code 624 one or more wheels over footpath - John Harrison Way
« Reply #14 on: »

Where is the boundary between the footway and carriageway?

I suggest that this is shown by the signed parking places either side of the location where the rear limits are marked by the inlaid stones - if they are not so marked then they're not marked at all and the parking places by default extend to the gardens md there isn't a footway!

As the council has chosen to use this marking as the boundary between the carriageway and footway then they cannot expect a driver to think the opposite at the OP's location i.e. this marking is behind the OP's car therefore they must be on the carriageway.