Author Topic: Failed appeal for loading on yellow lines, advice on what to do next  (Read 205 times)

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honeybadger99

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Hi, I previously made a post here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150362 but was advised to also post here. See original post for a little more detail, I'll try to keep this post more brief to keep it simple:

Essentially, I received a PCN for loading (food delivery orders). I appealed and then they sent a letter back asking me to prove I was loading. I did this, and now the council have denied my appeal, on the basis that I was stopped on a road with perpedicular lines (where loading is ofc not allowed), and also they said that what I was loading wasn't bulky enough. This seems odd, because if that was the case then why did they bother asking me to prove I was loading to begin with?

I did return to the location to check the lines on the road, and there are some lines there, BARELY. You can take a look for yourself in the below photos.



See below for all relevant photos:

Unforuantely I can't find the original PCN, and I haven't kept copies of what I sent them (silly, yeah) but here is:

The first letter they sent me after I appealed, asking me to provide evidence of loading:



To prove the loading, I provided this 2 photos: https://imgur.com/a/7kREVVJ I also suggested they could watch the footage on either of the 2 CEOs there as they watched me load.

They then sent me back this:




Here are photos of where I was stopped:





Location: https://goo.gl/maps/tnwXRCXHynJwuMNA6

The letter of rejection they sent me also included a sheet explaining how to appeal via www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/appeal

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cp8759

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Re: Failed appeal for loading on yellow lines, advice on what to do next
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2023, 09:23:57 pm »
The Notice of Rejection makes no mention of yellow lines perpendicular to the kerb, it only mentions line parallel to the kerb.

The key question is, were you working as a delivery driver / loading in the course of business, or were you just picking up a food order for yourself?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

honeybadger99

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Re: Failed appeal for loading on yellow lines, advice on what to do next
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2023, 10:25:05 am »
The Notice of Rejection makes no mention of yellow lines perpendicular to the kerb, it only mentions line parallel to the kerb.

The key question is, were you working as a delivery driver / loading in the course of business, or were you just picking up a food order for yourself?

Oh, I'm an idiot, I don't know why I read parallel as perpendicular this whole time lol.

It was in the course of business, I sent them this as evidence to show I was picking up 2 orders when working for hungry panda:

https://imgur.com/a/7kREVVJ

But in their reply they say this isn't bulky enough to warrant me loading there, but:

1. I don't know how the above image can indicate how bulky the order was
2. Is it even relevant how bulky it is? Even if I was picking up a letter, that is technically loading (although taking the point to the extreme). But I guess I'm asking is there a particular size/weight cargo has to be for it to be considered 'loading' when picking it up?

cp8759

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Re: Failed appeal for loading on yellow lines, advice on what to do next
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2023, 03:52:49 pm »
The requirement for goods to be bulky / heavy / difficult to carry does not apply to loading and unloading in the course of business (if an Amazon  delivery driver had to decide whether each and every item that they deliver is bulky / heavy or not, the whole business model would collapse), the key decision is Jane Packer Flowers Limited And Others v City of Westminster (1960034955, 19 July 1997).

I think they didn't understand that you were claiming to be acting in the course of business, and to be honest I don't blame them as this isn't particularly clear from the screenshot.

This should be winnable at the tribunal, but will need to be presented properly. To make things easier, would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

honeybadger99

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Re: Failed appeal for loading on yellow lines, advice on what to do next
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2023, 08:15:47 am »
The requirement for goods to be bulky / heavy / difficult to carry does not apply to loading and unloading in the course of business (if an Amazon  delivery driver had to decide whether each and every item that they deliver is bulky / heavy or not, the whole business model would collapse), the key decision is Jane Packer Flowers Limited And Others v City of Westminster (1960034955, 19 July 1997).

I think they didn't understand that you were claiming to be acting in the course of business, and to be honest I don't blame them as this isn't particularly clear from the screenshot.

This should be winnable at the tribunal, but will need to be presented properly. To make things easier, would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Sorry for the slow response - but yeah that would be great. What would you need from me? I have a code to use at the tribunal website and I have made an account there - do you need the code or login details or..?

Thanks!

cp8759

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Re: Failed appeal for loading on yellow lines, advice on what to do next
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2023, 11:20:55 am »
I'll drop you a PM.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

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Re: Failed appeal for loading on yellow lines, advice on what to do next
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2023, 09:32:09 am »
DNC'ed.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order