3. Entering and stopping in a box junction
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Entering and stopping in a box junction
« on: »
& again..  :'(

Any grounds of appeal for the below?

City of Westminister

Entering & stopping in a box junction when prohibited (Camera enforcement)

https://ibb.co/kSwMS7W
https://ibb.co/L6f6zwt
https://ibb.co/gMmjYwS
https://ibb.co/wcgfw4N
https://ibb.co/DrVvkTn


PCN :

https://ibb.co/MCRSGmX
https://ibb.co/3TTsXnW
https://ibb.co/Yb9psKQ
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #1 on: »
post the video not stills from it

The date for payment quoted on the PCN is wrong and that alone can be a winner
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 04:54:24 pm by Pastmybest »
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #2 on: »
+1 The PCN is unenforceable.
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #3 on: »
I've watched the video.  I assume you are the car turning left out of the box? If so the video does not give any evidence of a contravention.  It's only a contravention to stop in a box junction due to stationary vehicles. The video offers no evidence as to the reason for your stop.  It may well have been for pedestrians crossing the road.
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Pastmybest on February 06, 2024, 04:52:29 pm
post the video not stills from it

The date for payment quoted on the PCN is wrong and that alone can be a winner

https://www.veed.io/view/57e14e57-f49b-46f0-b0c5-c027c2463ab8?sharingWidget=true&panel=share
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on February 06, 2024, 09:08:39 pm
I've watched the video.  I assume you are the car turning left out of the box? If so the video does not give any evidence of a contravention.  It's only a contravention to stop in a box junction due to stationary vehicles. The video offers no evidence as to the reason for your stop.  It may well have been for pedestrians crossing the road.

That is correct. I've uploaded the video to the link above this comment. Let me know if it doesn't work for anybody with a recommendation of a different upload link.

Thanks guys
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #6 on: »
Here's the video:



Well it's not a contravention to being with, and the PCN wording is hopelessly flawed. Just send this:

Dear City of Westminster,

I challenge liability for PCN WE50529041 for the following reasons:

1) The video footage does not show any contravention, as the video does not show any stationary vehicles beyond the box markings,
2) The penalty charge notice is hopelessly flawed as the statutory periods are wrong
3) Based on the above, it would be wholly unreasonable for the council to reject this representation.

Should the council reject this representation, I will be pursuing a costs application at the tribunal.

Yours faithfully,

Don't forget to keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Do not rely on the post, keep checking the amount due on the council website and let us know when the amount due goes up or down.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #7 on: »
Wow! A psychological template re how to respond to a bully!  The problem is:  these people dealing with such are totally incompetent and actually believe they are right!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 09:57:46 pm by Hippocrates »
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Agree Agree x 1 View List
Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on February 12, 2024, 12:21:57 am
Here's the video:



Well it's not a contravention to being with, and the PCN wording is hopelessly flawed. Just send this:

Dear City of Westminster,

I challenge liability for PCN WE50529041 for the following reasons:

1) The video footage does not show any contravention, as the video does not show any stationary vehicles beyond the box markings,
2) The penalty charge notice is hopelessly flawed as the statutory periods are wrong
3) Based on the above, it would be wholly unreasonable for the council to reject this representation.

Should the council reject this representation, I will be pursuing a costs application at the tribunal.

Yours faithfully,

Don't forget to keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Do not rely on the post, keep checking the amount due on the council website and let us know when the amount due goes up or down.

https://ibb.co/CHRSFSh

The restriction that I am supposed to have ignored was not signed

would this be the correct selection?
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #9 on: »
Can anyone recommend which option to select in the above options? I feel as if none apply to the appeal..
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #10 on: »
No idea as it is rubbish.  Why not make a pdf and attach it?
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #11 on: »
The payment period in the PCN is:
The penalty charge mist be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served. You must either:

'Pay the penalty charge before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice...


The Act says:
iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

So, the PCN does state what's required. It also gives a form which is not correct. So, OP let's be clear. The statutory periods are wrong is as wrong as the error being described. It's too far reaching. You need to be more focused IMO.

The PCN gives 2 payment periods, one (the first) beginning on the date of service and the second 'beginning on the date of the notice'.

Self-evidently there can only be one, and given that the practical effect of the difference is a minimum of two days and a possible maximum of 4 days means that the PCN fails to meet the standard required by the Act.
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: privates on February 13, 2024, 05:43:44 pm
Can anyone recommend which option to select in the above options? I feel as if none apply to the appeal..
They're all nonsense, just pick one at random. We'll have to go to the tribunal anyway so it hardly matters.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #13 on: »
Challenge has been accepted.

Much appreciated guys!
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: privates on April 19, 2024, 07:01:07 pm
Challenge has been accepted.

Much appreciated guys!
That's astonishing, can we see the acceptance letter please?
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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