3. Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
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Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
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Hi all,


I'm hoping for some advice re. appealing a parking ticket. And if I have just got it wrong, please say because I feel like I'm going mad.

The bays and signage is very confusing.
I parked in a bay with a broken single yellow line through it. There is signage immediately next to the bay, on the border of the bay and the single yellow line behind it. I interpreted this as meaning:
1. The right hand signage applied to the right of the sign, the left hand signage applied to the left.
2. Therefore, no restrictions applied on a Saturday when I as parked










I appealed in, saying the following:

Quote
The signs say the following:
Right hand side (applying to the parking bays to the right of this post) No stopping Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30 No Loading Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30 Monday-Friday, you may pay and display between 09:15 and 16:30 (between the restricted hours above)
Left hand side (applying to the single yellow line to the right of this post) No stopping Monday-Saturday 08:00 - 18:30 No Loading No Loading Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30 I was parked legally today, a Saturday, in a parking bay to the right of these signs.
The parking payment machine confirms the restricted hours for these bays as on the right hand side of the signage, Monday-Friday 08:00-09:15 and 16:30-18:30.

I am appealing this PCN: 1. Because I was legally parked 2. If it is the council's position that I was not legally parked, then I challenge because the signage is unclear and confusing, and therefore unenforceable. For this to be the case, you would have to argue that the sign in the top left applies to both the single yellow line and the parking bays. It would also render the top right hand sign redundant. One of the middle signs would also be redundant. This is confusing and unclear. I believe I was legally parked as I was in a designated parking bay outside of restricted hours. I attach a photo showing 3 things: 1. The yellow car, legally parked within a parking bay, the borders of which you can see in the bottom left. 2. The signage 3. The parking payment meter

This appeal was rejected as follows:



To me, this is all very unclear and therefore, as I understand it, unenforeable.

Maps: GOOGLE MAPS

Screenshot from maps. I have tried to show where I understood the restrictions to apply:



I do want to take this further, as I think I have a case. But  happy to be told otherwise!

Any help and advice is most welcome.

All the best,
Tom
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 12:16:12 am by cp8759 »
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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #1 on: »
Please post both sides of the PCN in full, no redactions. In the meantime I'll get hold of the map tile for this location.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #2 on: »
Images below.

For other info, I posted to reddit and received a few interesitng asnwers
from r/Edinburgh
.

The most helpful, I think, is this:

Quote
I occasionally design roads for adoption. The history of the rules here shows two very poorly designed road changes:

In 2011 parking bays were added for the shops (4 hours max parking). To prohibit parking over-stays, a single yellow line is used to restrict parking/waiting for a couple hours before and after the restricted times. But the road already had a single yellow line restriction Monday-Saturday, so the double signs are used to show where the restrictions stop and start.

In 2012 a bin space was provided for the shops within the parking bay. https://www.tellmescotland.gov.uk/notices/city-of-edinburgh/traffic/00000058183 https://www.tellmescotland.gov.uk/attachments/16/1549364647/58183_2467_12_32B%20Plans%201%20of%204.pdf This was done by removing the parking bay for a short section, rather than hatching or a bay. This meant changing the single yellow line again, for one short section. For this, another double sign was added to the right hand side of the bin. However, crucially, no sign was provided to the left hand side to show where the single yellow line changes back into the parking bay over-stay restriction.

The Council's own Edinburgh GIS "Atlas" doesn't even show the yellow lines. https://cityofedinburgh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=783e530d92994246bcaeb7419437fd78

**** poor all around and overstay restriction should clearly be removed.



« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 11:55:56 am by narwhal4543 »
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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #3 on: »
Well the map tiles from the traffic order are on their way, just let us know when you get the Notice to Owner and post it on here, just redact your postal address.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #4 on: »
Council is definitely in the wrong here. Those two conflicting signs 10 feet apart shouldn’t be there. As someone has already said, it looks like they took a bay away go make space for the wheelie bin and made a mess of things.

An easy win if you take it over the council’s head.
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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #5 on: »
Map tile here, any sign of the NTO yet?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #6 on: »
Just received! Should I post up a picture of it?

Thank you for your time on this. Much appreciated.
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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote
Just received! Should I post up a picture of it?

Yup. All sides. Only redact name and address.
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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #8 on: »
Ok thank you, attached here.

T

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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #9 on: »
It's amazing what can emerge when you put your thinking cap on: the signs, bays and lines are actually all correct and perfectly match the traffic order, and you interpreted all the signs correctly in the first place (the signs are not best practice as they're missing directional signs, but their positioning makes the extent of the restrictions perfectly clear). It's the parking warden who misunderstood the signs, and I very much suspect that whoever looked at the informal representations didn't bother to look at this properly and just assumed you were parked illegally.

This is going to be really easy:

Dear City of Edinburgh Council,

The alleged contravention did not occur. The signs plainly indicate that the yellow line outside the parking bay is in force on a Saturday, but the single yellow line within the bay is only in force from Monday to Friday. Having checked the map tile at https://drive.google.com/uc?id=15PL0fJFDJkSkKXp_0jvTYMAQyhoywhmo it is clear that this is correctly reflected in the traffic regulation order.

It follows that the bays, signs and yellow line markings are all entirely correct, as was my interpretation of them. It is parking attendant E1720 who misunderstood the restrictions, so it would appear some refresher training would be in order. It is plain that whoever considered my informal representations either didn't understand the evidence, or did not consider it properly or at all and simply assumed I was parked unlawfully, so L Harkness should receive some refresher training as well.

As neither the signs nor the traffic order support the contravention, it would be wholly unreasonable for you to reject this representation.

It follows that should you issue a Notice of Rejection, I will be seeking costs against you at the tribunal.

Yours faithfully,


Send the representation online and get a screenshot of the confirmation screen.

If they don't acknowledge that they got it wrong in the rejection letter, I really think you should pursue a formal complaint against both parking attendant E1720, and against L Harkness: the PCN should not have been issued in the first place, and once challenged it should have been promptly cancelled with no fuss.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2023, 12:21:29 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #10 on: »
Thank you for this! One question...
Looking at the order, I am slightly confused and I just want to make sure I understand all of this myself.

Looking at the Lochrin Buildings, going right to left, I see the following:
1. Details of the parking bays, in grey
2. the single yellow line, highlighted in yellow. This relates particularly to the section where the bin is, i.e. where it would have been illegal to park on a Saturday.

3. There is then another set of restrictions covering the bay I was parked in, highlighted in grey.
4. To the left of this, there is another yellow line restriction reading 'Monday-Saturday 8-18:30'.

To be clear, this second yellow line restriction applies to the yellow line to the left and outside of the bay I was parked in? As a layman, I look at this set of 4 restrictions and read that the bay I was in was not in use on a saturday due to that yellow line restriction. Am I just reading that incorrectly?


Hopefully my confusion is clearly explained... let me know if not. As ever, your time is much appreciated!
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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #11 on: »
In simple terms, the single yellow lines outside the bays operate Monday to Saturday, the yellow lines within the bays operate Monday to Friday.

Therefore on Saturday, the bays are not subject to any parking controls at all and you can park for as long as you wish. The signage correctly reflects this.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #12 on: »
Appeal accepted, ticket cancelled!

Thank you all!
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Re: Edinburgh, parking in a restricted area outside of times allowed, Lochrin Buildings
« Reply #13 on: »
Fantastic news, some common sense at last. Can we see the acceptance letter please?
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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