Author Topic: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working  (Read 1075 times)

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Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #15 on: »
ECNs used to turn up on PePiPoo every so often. Including from the Royal Parks and Epping Forest. And a long case from Doncaster. The Doncaster case had very comprehensive information on the subject of ECNs. Alas we no longer have any access.

The standing advice with ECNs was to pay them especially if there was a discount option still available. That's because ultimately the case would progress with a summons to a Magistrate's Court with a charge of failing to pay the ECN. At that point the merits of the original PCN got lost and it's just not worth the hassle of trying to defend. Also it's the Registered Keeper that's ultimately liable if the driver is not identified or can't be traced.

That said, NSL might be new on the block. Last I recall the ECNs in the Royal Parks were issued by the Royal Parks Constabulary who are Police Officers. I think that the Constabulary were subsumed into the Met Police at some point.

I don't know if there is any requirement or standard practice to re-offer the discount when a challenge is submitted within 14 days. Probably not.

See what others have to say.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 07:27:48 pm by Enceladus »
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Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #16 on: »
I think there's a good chance they'll cancel given the machine faults.
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Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #17 on: »
As an update, I have appealed online and received an "acknowledgement" email.

It doesn't appear to freeze the 14 day discount window, so likely I would need to pay up in the next 12 days in case of no response or rejection. Will update here if it the appeal is somehow honoured.

Thanks all.

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #18 on: »
Got a rejection response to my appeal. Not that it matters but it does appear that they reset the 14 day period with the response. Will pay in a couple of days, unless advised otherwise here.

Pasting the reply below:
______________________________________________

26/02/2025

Dear Mr xxxx,

Ticket Number                                       RK2051xxxxx

Issued on                                                   16/02/2025

Vehicle Registration                                           XXXXXX

Location                                                     West Carriage Drive

 

I am in receipt of your correspondence regarding the above Excess Charge Notice.

 
The above vehicle was parked in a Pay & Display bay without displaying a valid Pay & Display ticket, therefore, the Excess Charge Notice has been issued correctly.


According to the evidence collected by the Parking Attendant, no Pay & Display ticket was seen.  Please note a valid Pay & Display ticket is only valid for use for parking when displayed in accordance with regulations in the windscreen of a vehicle.


I note from your correspondence that you were unable to make payment due to an issue with the Pay & Display machine. I acknowledge your comments, however, please be advised, the onus is on the driver to make payment for parking before leaving the vehicle, or alternative legal parking should be sought.


It is never possible for all ticket machines to be out of order in our parks. In every location we have at least two or three machines. If one machine is not working for any reason, the customer should call the help line number where they are advised to use the nearest machine which is usually 3-4 minutes away.


I have carefully considered the points you have raised in your challenge but have decided not to cancel your Excess Charge Notice.


You are, therefore, requested to comply with the Excess Charge Notice. However, the reduced charge of £40.00 will still be accepted provided payment is received within 14 days of the date of this letter. Failure to make payment will result in the full Excess Charge Notice of £80.00 becoming due.


If you still wish to dispute this Excess Charge Notice, the DVLA registered keeper will be sent a Notice to Owner who may make formal representation against the Excess Charge Notice. Please note, the full charge of £80.00 will be applicable at the Notice to Owner stage.


Failure to make payment or submit a formal representation will result in the progression of the Excess Charge Notice resulting in the debt being passed to Trace Debt Recovery UK Ltd to recover the outstanding balance on behalf of Royal Parks. Once the debt has been passed to Trace Debt Recovery UK Ltd, we will not be able to accept any payments. You will need to contact them directly.

 

Payment Options

 

•     Phone 03432082089.

•     Online https://parkingservices.nsl.co.uk/royalparks/notices/default.asp

•     Post Cheques are required to be made payable to ‘Royal Parks’; please include your Excess Charge Notice number, vehicle registration number, and address on the back; then send it to:

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #19 on: »

I note from your correspondence that you were unable to make payment due to an issue with the Pay & Display machine. I acknowledge your comments, however, please be advised, the onus is on the driver to make payment for parking before leaving the vehicle, or alternative legal parking should be sought.

It is never possible for all ticket machines to be out of order in our parks. In every location we have at least two or three machines. If one machine is not working for any reason, the customer should call the help line number where they are advised to use the nearest machine which is usually 3-4 minutes away.

Never possible? Well you were informed that another machine was also out of order. Customer helpline? Is there one - and chances of it being answered probably low.


Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #20 on: »
I cannot find any reference to an ECN charge of £80 or that the owner may be held liable.

If anyone can, pl post a reference.

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #21 on: »
Never possible? Well you were informed that another machine was also out of order. Customer helpline? Is there one - and chances of it being answered probably low.

I agree 100% but would it be worth it, can't appeal again and I would be risking paying £80 instead of £40.

No idea about Customer Helpline number, I didn't see any number written on the machine or the signage at least.

What should be my next step?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2025, 02:14:19 pm by 8vaibhav »

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #22 on: »
The next step in their procedure is a Notice to Owner.

But there's no provision for holding an 'owner' - whatever or whoever this is supposed to be- liable:

2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State, or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for the same.


Depending on the wording of the so-called Notice to Owner, I cannot find any legal basis for NSL to request the registered keeper's data from DVLA.

I don't know whether NSL would re-offer the lower rate of ECN even after unsuccessful 'reps' but if you/the person on whom the 'NTO' would be served want to chance your arm then as far as I can see the person who is asked to pay on the basis of the 'NTO' would have these arguments (but whether these directly map across to stated grounds of 'reps' in the 'NTO' who knows?):

They were not the driver and therefore the person deemed liable under the 1994 regulations;

There is no basis for an Excess Charge of £80, the most recent regulations enable a charge of £50;

Contrary to the statement in NSL's letter dated *** none of the *** unserviceable machines carried any information regarding phoning for assistance to report broken machines;

Up to whoever thinks they'd receive the 'NTO' as to whether to let matters run this far.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2025, 02:47:56 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #23 on: »

Depending on the wording of the so-called Notice to Owner, I cannot find any legal basis for NSL to request the registered keeper's data from DVLA.


Many thanks for your response.
I am not 100% sure the Helpline number wasn't stated anywhere but very likely it wasn't.

Can they use the contact details shared as part of my "appeal" as an identification of the driver rather than going via DVLA?
NTO (if served) would presumably be served after getting keeper's details either from my appeal or from DVLA, I am not sure how likely an NTO would be in this case.

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #24 on: »
No idea.

There are no regulatory provisions to consult other than those to which I've referred and these don't refer to NTO or anything similar.

I've no idea what hymn sheet NSL are reading from but I cannot suggest the 'owner' risks the discount simply to find out. It's their choice.
 

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #25 on: »
I've no idea what hymn sheet NSL are reading from but I cannot suggest the 'owner' risks the discount simply to find out. It's their choice.

Sorry don't think I understand. The driver's appeal has been rejected so will lose the discount after 14 days. Then as per them full liability (and no discount) could be shifted to owner via an NTO, so the owner never had a discount to begin with. Or maybe I am missing what you are saying.

In any case, you are tempting me to not pay £40 and see how it goes. For one I wasn't in the wrong and I have no option to appeal again as things stand without an NTO first issued. 

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #26 on: »
Found the £80....

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1194/contents/made

Reg. 4.

But cannot find anything which means anyone other than the person who parked the vehicle is liable, see the 1995 Regs:


7(2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State, or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for the same.

(the 14 days has been amended by subsequent regs).

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #27 on: »
Found the £80....

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1194/contents/made

Reg. 4.

But cannot find anything which means anyone other than the person who parked the vehicle is liable, see the 1995 Regs:


7(2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State, or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for the same.

(the 14 days has been amended by subsequent regs).

Thanks but since I did provide correct contact details and full address with my appeal, can they claim they know the driver's contact details and demand that the driver pay?

It seems the defense of "unknown" driver is lost in this case, correct? So when/if the NTO comes this defense won't work and liability would be £80. Does this involve court visit then? (May not be worth the hassle in such a case)

Also, I don't know if it matters but the car is on a lease but the "keeper" company will certainly share the details of "leaser" /me if asked. Thought I should share for completeness in case it's relevant.

Many thanks for your time and help.

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #28 on: »
As it's a lease car I think it may be best to pay the discount and get rid of it.

Wait for Mr Anderson but the combination of ECN/lease is not conducive - they may well just pay it and bill it to you and I don't know if they can transfer it to you. They may also charge an admin fee. 

 

Re: ECN Kensington Gardens NSL Parking Machine not working
« Reply #29 on: »
Ditto,

You've pre-empted my next question regarding who is likely to be the recipient.

It's a mess.

As for 'It seems the defense of "unknown" driver is lost in this case,', this is private parking charge-speak (presumably in the context of Protection of Freedoms Act) whose provisions regarding 'keeper liability' apply only to unregulated land, but this land is regulated (under statutory control) so it doesn't apply.

I've no idea what this so-called Notice to Owner would provide. You're rather presuming it'll take the form of a NTO under the Traffic Management Act, with all the niceties of representations and specified grounds which allow lease and vehicle-hire companies(these are separate legal entities and different arguments apply) to relieve themselves of liability by naming a hirer or lessee. But it can't be the same because there's no option to appeal to an adjudicator with an ECN.

If your lease company might charge you to administer a NTO then on balance I'd pay now.

I'd love to know where NSL are going with this but can't ask you/your lease company to be pathfinders at your expense.