DOUBLE PCN - Havering, code 52 Failing to comply with prohibition, South St RM1/Eastern Rd RM1 (PCN 1) AND South St/H

DOUBLE PCN - Havering, code 52 Failing to comply with prohibition on certain types of vehicle, South St RM1/Eastern Rd RM1 (PCN 1) AND South St/Havana Close (PCN 2)

I went to pick up a friend from Romford Station and drove north up South St.  After the station I was caught on two cameras just twenty-one seconds apart.  Havering Council has sent a separate PCN for each camera for 'failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle'.

The first camera (PCN 1) was at the junction of South St and Eastern Rd where the only prohibition sign is for no right turn; the only permissible route is straight ahead, which is the route I took.  

The second camera (PCN 2) was at the junction of South St and Havana Close where there is just a single sign regarding the prohibition of cars.  It is butted up against another sign which has an arrow pointing to the left and so, in the brief moment available to decipher it, I read the two signs as being related and that the car prohibition sign corresponded to the road on the left.  I, therefore, drove straight ahead.  The Traffic Signs Manual 2018, Para. 6.3.5 makes recommendations for separation between signs for clarity when they are not related.

I appealed both PCNs on the grounds that a) they should not issue two separate fines for what is, essentially, a single contravention and b) that the road signage was confusing.  The council rejected both appeals and removed the 50% early payment discounts.

I requested a phone number to speak with a human since I wanted more clarity but the council said they only allow communication by email.  I emailed enquiring about their grounds for issuing two fines for a single offence; their response did not address my question.  I offered to settle immediately to avoid going to a tribunal if they would honour the 50% discount on the first PCN and cancel the second PCN.  They responded that I hadn't "supplied any mitigating circumstances to close either case or re offer the discount".

I believe the council's communication has been inadequate because they have not addressed my requests for information and because they have taken days to reply to emails, allowing no speedier or more direct option of communication.  These factors have led to a lack of transparency around the legitimacy of the PCNs and to delays which have contributed to the expiration of the 50% discount.

Further to the above, based on the camera image the council supplied, it seems that the location of the first camera (South St RM1/Eastern Rd RM1 according to the PCN letter) might be incorrect.

I would be grateful for your advice about how to proceed, please, and what arguments I should make if I go to a tribunal.



Location of the two PCNs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/aZ1QhSGPkX11f7c99

PCN letters:-

It seems the 'insert an image' function didn't work so here are the links...

*update: will try again*

It seems the 'insert an image' function didn't work so here are the links...

None of your 'links' above is in fact a link.
For guidance on posting images see
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/

Havering don't re-offer the discount, being a ruthless, venal, and rapacious council, one of the worst in London, so your next move is to register an appeal at London Tribunals. This is a total no-brainer because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs at all.

*attempt #2*

*New information*

I emailed my councillor and he responded with the following.  "I have looked at this one before and what the council informed me was that the first PCN was issued for driving along South street past the station. What they say is the driver then has an option to turn left into Havana Way, but continue along into South street which why a second PCN was issued, If you had turned left into Havana Way the second PCN would not of been issued." (Presumably he means Havana Close rather than Havana Way.)

I have two issues with this regarding the first PCN:-

1) I was accessing the station. All the signs I can see around the station which prohibit cars say 'except for access' - since I was accessing the station then surely travel along that stretch of road was permitted.

2) The location of the first PCN, according to the PCN letter, is not near any prohibition signs.  The PCN location is north of the station while the aforementioned signs are south of the station.  (Here is a map to illustrate: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qptdPvaadpa7XAGX9)

Regarding the second PCN, I maintain that the signage could be clearer. It could also be reinforced rather than just a single sign.

We've seen this location a few times now, and appeals at London Tribunals have been won. As there is no discount you should now register appeal at London Tribunals

Thank you for your reply - and do you have any advice on what are my strongest arguments are likely to be when I appeal, please?

for example... regarding PCN 1:-

- I had a right to use that road since I was accessing the station
- there is no evidence of prohibiting signage in the photos or videos the council has provided
- this PCN is within twenty one seconds of another PCN along the same road so they should be counted as a singular infraction deserving only one fine

regarding PCN 2:-

- the signage is insufficient and confusing
- this PCN is within twenty one seconds of another PCN along the same road so they should be counted as a singular infraction deserving only one fine

The problem you have is that there are two separate restrictions, One for South St/Eastern road, and the next one South St/Havana Close.

The first restriction does allow access, so this must be your main point, also their video doesn't show you passing any signs, in fact the signs are over 71 metres away, and have a plate saying "Except for access".So you have a good argument about this PCN.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/iHKdT6Rg6KDB2ZZr6

There is a fairly recent successful appeal at this location on the London Tribunals statutory register - 2240307021. 

However the other separate restriction is past the railway bridge, and the signs face you directly: -

https://maps.app.goo.gl/j2d53TNAwXv7mWR29

Clearly motorists making use of the "Except for access" at the previous restriction, must turn left here, as access is not allowed, and with no days or times, means 24x7
There have been three successful appeals here, 2250496292, 2260195554, and 2260146264
The last one is interesting because it shows the complete and utter stupidity of Havering who issued two PCNs, one each for the two restrictions at this location at the same time. The adjudicator said it is difficult to see how a vehicle can be in two places at once and accepted the appeal. As both of your PCNs are shown at the same time, you might care to look at this appeal, but look at all the others too.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

What are the grounds available on the website? I see they have improved their PCNs.

Hi, thank you for your responses!

Where on the website does it say what grounds are available, please? I can only find this page but surely this isn't comprehensive? https://www.havering.gov.uk/parking-2/parking-tickets-traffic-fines/2

I have been informed that if the cases go to a tribunal then I might have to pay tribunal costs; does anyone know how likely this is?

Also, can anyone tell me how soon a tribunal would likely be scheduled for, please? (i.e. normally weeks or months?)

I really don't have time to look into this much, which makes it all the more frustrating - but also apologies if I'm missing obvious stuff; I am just really stretched and burnt out at the moment so this will be why, please be patient. 

There are no additional costs at the adjudicators, London Tribunals, only the full PCN penalty is payable if you lose.