Author Topic: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?  (Read 2497 times)

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Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #15 on: »
Please see  the draft of my initial appeal to the council that was rejected below. Any ideas on what to add/remove for the next challenge?

"I am writing to formally appeal the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) I received on 22/06/2023 for an alleged parking violation at Atherton Street. I respectfully request that you review the circumstances surrounding this incident, as I firmly believe that the ticket was issued in error.

According to the PCN, I was accused of parking in a suspended parking zone between 19 to 25 Atherton Street. However, I would like to bring to your attention that I was, in fact, parked directly in front of 27 Atherton Street, which was not part of the suspended area. I have attached pictorial evidence that clearly shows my vehicle parked legally in front of the aforementioned address during the time specified on the PCN.


I kindly request that you carefully review the attached evidence, which clearly demonstrates that my vehicle was not parked in a suspended zone. I trust that upon examination, you will acknowledge the error and promptly cancel the penalty charge.

In light of this situation, I kindly ask for your understanding and swift resolution to rectify this matter. I appreciate your attention to this appeal and I kindly request that you respond in writing to confirm the cancellation of the PCN. Should you require any further information or clarification, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter."

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #16 on: »
Please re-instate Reg.mark and PCN number.

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #17 on: »
Here is the link with the PCN and reg numbers

« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 12:02:24 am by cp8759 »

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #18 on: »
So let's see this "pictorial evidence" you plan on sending please.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #19 on: »
This was the evidence I previously sent.

https://imgur.com/a/Exg4sq9

Here is the rejection of the appeal by the council

https://imgur.com/a/8GbJMdT


Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #20 on: »
Can you go and get a tape measure and measure the distance from the start of 19 to the end of 25?

I reckon there's space for more than 4 cars, in which case the signage is ambiguous. It doesn't matter if 5 estates wouldn't fit, as long as 4 average cars could fit behind your car and before the boundary between numbers 19 and 17, then you cannot have been in the suspended area.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #21 on: »
I just measured the distance between 19 and 25 and the distance is 21.1 metres.

I found on the website below that the average car length in the UK is around 4.4 metres.

https://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/guides/ask-nvc/understanding-car-size-and-dimensions#:~:text=What%20is%20standard%20size%20car,1821mm%20wide%2C%20and%201534mm%20tall.

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #22 on: »
TSRGD puts the minimum length of a parallel parking bay as 4.5m
Even if that figure is used there is still 3.1m spare with 4 "standard" cars parked...or rather not parked.

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #23 on: »
Thanks DancingDad.

I am planning to send the draft below as my appeal. Any suggestions please?

"The measured span between the starting point at 19 Atherton Street and the conclusion at 25 Atherton Street is 21.1 meters. According to The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD), a parking bay must have a minimum length of 4.5 meters. This unequivocally demonstrates that the vehicle is not situated within the designated area for four parking spaces as indicated on the suspended parking sign."

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #24 on: »
There's got to be a better way of phrasing...not sure what at the moment?
But minimum length suggest that the council could define each space as 5.275m.... ie exact 4 spaces for  the 21.1m available.

It's the ambiguity that counts for me.
Suspended outside 17 to 25 but no specific limits, the only clue being 4 car spaces.
Is this centre to centre, edge to edge and if the latter, leading edge or outside edge or one of each?

TSRGD gives a minimum space length as 4.5m, average UK car is 4.4m, British Parking Association recommends 4.8m for parking bay length, even if the council allocated 5m per space, it still doesn't fill the area that the authority seems to be claiming and means any minimal overlap into "their" space is trivial, especially as they are not clear on the exact limits.

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #25 on: »
It's going to be difficult to produce definitive evidence about what exactly 4 car spaces means, so I suggest putting the burden of doing that on to the council. I'd go with something along the lines of:

"When I parked my car I read the suspension notice and diligently made sure that I left the required 4 car spaces behind me. If the council believe that there were less than 4 car spaces behind my vehicle at the time that I parked, I require the council to provide me with a copy of whatever evidence they have that proves this point (including their definition of the length of a "car space" and the legal argument they intend to make that justifies this definition) so that I can make an informed decision about taking this case to the parking tribunal."

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #26 on: »
Thanks Grant Urismo

Appeal submitted.

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #27 on: »
I had a very similar situation a few years ago and won on appeal at London tribunal. In summary, the adjudicator sided with me as on balance there was too much ambiguity around whether a contravention occurred. I post below an extract of the adjudicators concluding comments:

The appellant in evidence before me highlighted referring to his written submissions, videos and photographs that the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 provided at schedule 7, part 5 paragraphs 2(4) and 2(5) that generally where bays were divided to indicate a parking space
then the length of the space was not to be less than 4500 with the maximum length of a parking bay
maybe 6.6 m when considering spaces for disabled badge holders. Therefore on his calculations
(using videos to demonstrate his calculations and position of his car) at 4.5 metres, 5 car spaces
would be approx. 22.5 metres and his car was parked at least at 24.1 metres.
I have considered the totality of the evidence before me and I find that I cannot be satisfied on balance that the signage which highlight the suspension is adequate or clear for the purposes of the
authority discharging their duties in demonstrating that the reasonable driver would have been aware
of the exact length of the suspended bays. There is some ambiguity as to the length of a bay and further the exact length of the suspension was not properly marked out end to end in order to avoid any ambiguity.
I find therefore given the totality of the evidence before me on balance, which includes lack of
adequate signage and the fact that the Appellant's vehicle is seen parked at the very edge of what might be the 5 suspended spaces, then this leads me to the conclude there is some ambiguity as to
whether there is an actual contravention. For these reasons I therefore allow the appeal.


Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #28 on: »
Quote
I had a very similar situation a few years ago and won on appeal at London tribunal.

If your case supports the OP it would be helpful for him to have the case number so he can add it in support of his own case.

Re: Do I Stand a Chance at Tribunal?
« Reply #29 on: »
Case Reference: 2210026624