Author Topic: Derby City Council - Bus Lane  (Read 1557 times)

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Derby City Council - Bus Lane
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Hi,
First of all, really impresssed with this site and the fact people are offering their advice for free, thankyou!

I have received a PCN from Derby City Council for driving in a bus lane on Traffic Street
As you can see from the pictures I cut across into the bus lane just before the end of it to get round traffic as I was getting into the third lane which was empty.
I can see a sign in the picture

which I assume is an ‘end of bus lane’ sign so I know I will struggle with this defence, but still seems silly for basically cutting across a few foot of the bus lane

Any advice anyone can give if this is worth appealing or just paying the reduced rate of £35 would be really appreciated

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/LdZTU90
« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 03:45:01 pm by Dan92 »

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Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #1 on: »
Please post all of the remaining page(s) of the PCN - mistakes are often in the 'small print' - and a GSV link to the location.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 04:10:42 pm by John U.K. »

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #2 on: »

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #3 on: »
You started to move into the bus lane by the white arrow. So this means you were in the bus lane for about 15 metres. There seems to be no on-line facility on the Derby City Council website for viewing the video. This is their sole evidence of the allegd contravention and must be presented to the adjudicator if you decide to take the matter to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #4 on: »
The website seems to require you to enter a ground of representation which has nothing to do with the law. I entered I did not see the signs, it then told me that the signs were clear and gave me the option to pay
If you cannot make reps on the legal grounds then that is a OI by the council and you will win

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #5 on: »
@Dan92 here's the video:



The traffic order is the Derby City Council (Traffic Street) (Bus, Hackney Carriage and Cycle Lane) Order 2007, I can't see any issues with the order but someone else might spot something.

There are at least two options to explore:

1) The camera authorisation, I have made the relevant enquiries, and
2) De-minimis, which appears to be the obvious ground to make representations and buy us some time.

The deadline to make representations and preserve the discount is 12 September 2024, so it's worth setting a reminder or alarm to make sure the deadline is not missed (don't make the representations now as we want to buy as much time as possible, but don't miss the deadline). Here is a draft:

Dear Derby City Council,

I challenge liability on the grounds of any infraction being de-minimis. In Ashfaq Ahmad Chaudhry v London Borough of Merton (2130253836, 11 July 2013) adjudicator Kevin Moore held that "there is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more than 10 metres before turning left"

More recently in Sarah-Jane Mendonca v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2210480049, 6 September 2021) adjudicator Monica Hillen held that "There is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more than 10 metres before turning left at the roundabout"

The same principle applies to this case, it follows that the PCN should be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I also agree with @Pastmybest regarding the council website at https://www.derby.gov.uk/transport-and-streets/parking-in-derby/penalty-charge-notices/challenge-penalty-charge-notice/driving-down-bus-lane/ which is nothing short of a disgrace. I will get a nice screen recording for the tribunal, in the meantime to actually make a representation you'll have to go here: https://pcn.derby.gov.uk/Pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=FORMAL

Once you've submitted the representation don't forget to take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #6 on: »
All,
Thanks for looking at this!

@cp8759
Thanks!
Reminder set! I also agree the website is awful.

Just to clarify - I should not make representations until you have heard back from the camera authorisation?

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #7 on: »
Just to clarify - I should not make representations until you have heard back from the camera authorisation?
@Dan92 not quite, if you hear back from me before 12 September then great. If not, make the representation anyway before midnight on that date.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #8 on: »
@Dan92 I'm afraid the council has confirmed the camera is a Roadflow Flexi Camera, and they have a certificate for it. In the circumstances, I suggest you send the representation as drafted above and simply hope for a mistake in the notice of rejection.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #9 on: »
@cp8759


thanks for checking this, I will get this sent over today!
I will update when I hear back


Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #10 on: »
Hi everyone,
I am trying to make representations online now but as @Pastmybest and @cp8759 have stated, it only gives specific options to appeal, and majority of them just say you are liable and a link to pay.
Shall I just pick one of the options that allows me to make the challenge (for example 'I was accessing a property or road') and put an extra line to explain this?
An awful site that effectively doesn't allow for correct appeals.

Thanks
Dan



Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #11 on: »
No head your representation

The contravention did not occur and see if you can upload it If not my advice is to post it first class with free proof of posting. Don't get registered or signed for because the post office do not usually require a council to do so and in law all you need to do is prove it was posted then it is for the council to prove the did not receive it (hard to do that)

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #12 on: »
Shall I just pick one of the options that allows me to make the challenge (for example 'I was accessing a property or road') and put an extra line to explain this?
@Dan92 yes, you don't want to risk sending a letter in the post.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #13 on: »
Thanks both,
I have submitted the representations online yesterday, after selecting one of the other options and going through it then gave me the option for 'the contravention did not occur' so I used this and the draft supplied above.

Thanks again, this is such a helpful forum, I will update when I hear back.

Re: Derby City Council - Bus Lane
« Reply #14 on: »
Hi everyone,

I have received a reply rejecting my appeal from Derby City Council, please see below.

https://imgur.com/a/rZeGn19