Author Topic: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD  (Read 199 times)

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COUNCILSAREPOO

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CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« on: October 29, 2023, 06:54:22 pm »
Got a PCN on Parsons mead croydon. Sent in appeal as blue badge holders are exempt but you need to register before hand. Sent in copies of blue badge and asked for the TRO and the list of who is exempt etc and they didnt send in any of the documents asked for.

I think they didn't consider the appeal and just sent a generic rejection as there is no mention of blue badge etc.

I mentioned the equality act and asked for reasonable adjustments to cancel it as blue badge holders are exempt.

The video shows the signs in the opposite direction and not from the direction of travel. I mentioned this in the appeal.

I have attached the copy of the rejection.

can I pay at the reduced rate and still appeal to adjudication for a refund? the letter says you can't but i think it might be possible.


https://ibb.co/0DxrDZ0
https://ibb.co/4RYQc1h
https://ibb.co/KKtPQyk
https://ibb.co/WzzHdpy
https://ibb.co/CBW2rmH
https://ibb.co/vQY7XTk
https://ibb.co/D1Mjv69
« Last Edit: October 29, 2023, 09:55:40 pm by COUNCILSAREPOO »

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Grant Urismo

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2023, 07:04:53 pm »
We need to see the PCN, and what you sent to them.

COUNCILSAREPOO

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2023, 07:30:45 pm »
I have attached the 1st page of the PCN as thats all i have i am doing this on behalf of my friend
and the appeal i sent in.

Incandescent

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2023, 09:03:03 pm »
Quote
can I pay at the reduced rate and still appeal to adjudication for a refund? the letter says you can't but i think it might be possible.

No. Paying closes off the adjudication option. If you could pay the discount and also appeal, everybody would do it and overload the system. It would also be legally odd. If you pay you admit the contravention, it is not a deposit returnable if you win at adjudication.

COUNCILSAREPOO

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2023, 10:03:31 pm »
thanks,
would this come under Failure to consider is a procedural impropriety.

They have written the "PCN was issued because our CCTV camera evidence shows your vehicle going where motorises vehicle are not allowed." But it doesnt, it only shows the signs from the opposite side as if a vehicle was coming from the opposite direction. the CCTV cameras are not fitted to show from the direction of travel so you can't see if there are any signs there or not.

There is no mention of anything about blue badge exemptions which was the main point.

cp8759

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2023, 10:06:11 pm »
Quote
can I pay at the reduced rate and still appeal to adjudication for a refund? the letter says you can't but i think it might be possible.

No. Paying closes off the adjudication option. If you could pay the discount and also appeal, everybody would do it and overload the system. It would also be legally odd. If you pay you admit the contravention, it is not a deposit returnable if you win at adjudication.
That's not quite correct, if you have a notice of rejection then you can appeal at any time during the 28 day period. In this scenario, a payment of 65 is a deposit returnable if you win at adjudication. The flip-side is that if you lose at adjudication, the council can demand the other 65.

Paying before receiving a notice of rejection does indeed close off all chance of appealing to the adjudicator, but in this case @COUNCILSAREPOO has a notice of rejection so we don't have to worry about that scenario.

In short, going to the tribunal means it's 0 or 130, so it's all or nothing.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2023, 10:07:16 pm »
I mentioned the equality act and asked for reasonable adjustments to cancel it as blue badge holders are exempt.
Why do you think blue badge holders are exempt?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

COUNCILSAREPOO

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2023, 11:13:55 pm »
https://www.croydon.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/streets-roads-and-pavements/chns/croydons-healthy-neighbourhoods/exemption-permits#:~:text=Blue%20badge%20exemption%20permit,of%20a%20valid%20blue%20badge.

Also https://www.croydon.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/streets-roads-and-pavements/chns/broad-green-chn-parsons-mead-area

It says blue badge holders exempt but only if they apply for exemption before hand.

This is the tricky junction where the signs are place right after you turn left and have little or no reaction time to read the signs.

I have looked at other notice of rejections and they at least mention some points raised by the person but this one doesn't mention any points raised.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2023, 11:36:19 pm by COUNCILSAREPOO »

Grant Urismo

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2023, 11:38:09 am »
Well the first page you linked to says that, but this page: https://www.croydon.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/streets-roads-and-pavements/chns/broad-green-chn-parsons-mead-area
says:

"Local residents are able to apply for a permit for up to three vehicles, the CHN map accessible via the link a little further down this webpage shows the permit zone. Exemptions will be made for some vehicles such as buses, black taxis, local school staff, blue badge holders and designated carers."

This is hopelessly vague, but I don't think it says you need to apply for a permit. It's unclear how or if the second sentence is related to the first, and the second sentence doesn't even make grammatical sense ("local school staff, blue badge holders and designated carers" are not vehicles) but I think it's reasonable to argue that a diligent motorist with a blue badge would read this paragraph and come to the conclusion that they are exempt, and they do not have to apply for a permit because those are only for local residents.

If the two sentences are intended to be read as one, then it either says that worthy vehicles/people are exempt from being able to apply for permits if they are local residents, which is absurd, or that local residents can apply for up to 3 permits but won't get them unless they are in some very small categories, which is also absurd, and if you read it that way it includes a provision for local residents who own buses but not local companies who own buses, which is even moe absurd, so I think it's reasonable to argue that the two sentences must be interpreted independently.

It's also sounds as if that you have a failure to consider, but we need to see their response and compare it to your appeal to advise yo on that.

If this was me, I'd be taking this one to adjudication. The council can't publish a web page that says you're exempt then turn round and say 'ha ha, tricked you, we didn't mean it, cough up'.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 12:11:38 pm by Grant Urismo »

COUNCILSAREPOO

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2023, 12:26:15 pm »
It's also sounds as if that you have a failure to consider, but we need to see their response and compare it to your appeal to advise yo on that.

If this was me, I'd be taking this one to adjudication. The council can't publish a web page that says you're exempt then turn round and say 'ha ha, tricked you, we didn't mean it, cough up'.

Thanks I put up the reply from them in the 1st post with links to imgbb but i have attached the pic. to this comment, also i have attached what i sent them. Their reply is a bog standard reply and mentions nothing of the points i sent them.

COUNCILSAREPOO

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2023, 07:25:37 pm »
I have even sent a letter to the CEO of Croydon about the procedural impropriety and equality act and worded it as a letter before action and the reply was she dont replay to this matter. In the letter i even asked them to provide the traffic order and list of exemptions. Surely this is another failure from the council. Under the freedom of information act they have to provide the traffic order and list of exemptions at the very least. For her to dismiss the letter completely is a joke.


cp8759

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2023, 07:27:59 pm »
This is the tricky junction where the signs are place right after you turn left and have little or no reaction time to read the signs.
Are you saying these advance warning signs have gone missing? https://maps.app.goo.gl/SQyWoTEwinnwSFY48

From what you are saying, your case rests on the failure to consider the plea for discretion that you made. CAn you please show us a copy of exactly what you sent? If you didn't keep a copy, please recreate it from memory as best you can.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

COUNCILSAREPOO

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2023, 07:42:09 pm »
This is the tricky junction where the signs are place right after you turn left and have little or no reaction time to read the signs.
Are you saying these advance warning signs have gone missing? https://maps.app.goo.gl/SQyWoTEwinnwSFY48

From what you are saying, your case rests on the failure to consider the plea for discretion that you made. CAn you please show us a copy of exactly what you sent? If you didn't keep a copy, please recreate it from memory as best you can.

no those signs are still there.
i have attached the file in previous posts ill attach it again but let me know if you cant see it. its the pdf file attached to this post

cp8759

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2023, 07:56:11 pm »
We need to see the video, the easiest way would be for you to just give us the number plate and PCN number. There's no point in hiding these details, the council has them already.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

COUNCILSAREPOO

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Re: CROYDON PARSONS MEAD
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2023, 08:04:39 pm »
ok, i thought you was meant to hide the details.
the PCN reference is CR18524525
Vehicle: LY68KUF

i spoke to my friend who said she didnt she the warning signs on gardeners road. In some appeals this year people have put it down that the signs have fallen. I dont live local to check if they are there but the council didnt put photos of the warning signs in the rejection letter, like they have with others.