Author Topic: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge  (Read 169 times)

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ikina

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Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« on: October 01, 2024, 10:09:24 pm »
Hi everyone,

I got home from work late recently and my street and adjacent streets were full. It was raining and I parked on a side road. I couldn't see any yellow lines and the curb didn't look obviously dropped at the time. I've seen other drivers park there frequently(including on the pavement) so I assumed it was rational.
The next afternoon I found a PCN on my car with code 27.

Is there any chance of an appeal on this?

Ive attached some images below.

Thanks in advance.



« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 10:12:57 pm by ikina »

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Incandescent

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2024, 10:54:13 pm »
So here: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/H4CoyRtmf5vnqMELA

I'm afraid the contravention looks made out, as the kerb is dropped on both corners. Could you not have moved forward a bit into the gap visible beyond your car ? Basically, they wallop you for this contravention because they can't do it for "obstruction", (of the corner, reducing visibilty), as that is a police matter. Of course the kerbs on both sides have to be dropped, but here they are.

Of course there may be a "technical" appeal, nothing to do with the contravention, like PCN errors etc, so please post the full front of the PCN, plus the back. OK, I know it may be a PITA but sometimes an error of content is fatal to their enforcement. 

stamfordman

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2024, 11:22:10 pm »
Post the full PCN with all details or post the council's pics.

Hippocrates

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2024, 10:30:21 am »
The way to win this will be the grounds on their website.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

ikina

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2024, 09:18:49 pm »
Hi, thanks for getting back to me and for your help.
I moved as forward as I could at the time of parking as there were cars in front of mine.

Here is the full PCN:


ikina

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2024, 08:13:14 pm »
Hi @Incandescent and @stamfordman do you think this ticket has any errors that would give me a chance? Thanks again.

Hippocrates

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2024, 09:08:22 pm »
@ikina Please go onto the website and report back what you see. Screenshot everything and post it here.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/bensham-lane-croydon/msg34752/#msg34752
« Last Edit: October 03, 2024, 09:10:06 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Incandescent

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2024, 11:39:18 pm »
There is an error in the "small print". They state that the discount is available for 14 days from date of notice, whereas under the Traffic Management Act, this is from date of service.

In fact all of the section under "DO NOT IGNORE THIS NOTICE" seems wrong, because the 28 days to serve a Notice to Owner is 28 days from service of the PCN, not the contravention date.

OK, having said the above, in most cases the PCN is served on the day of the contravention, but may not be.  There was a judicial review on this very aspect of date of PCN and date of service many years ago, and the decision was that the PCN must be dated, and this date must be a separate date on the PCN to the date of contravention.

If the above is wrong, somebody will no doubt correct me, but as it stands the PCN mis-states the law.

ikina

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2024, 11:57:01 pm »
Thanks you @Incandescent - do you think I have grounds to appeal?

ikina

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2024, 11:57:52 pm »
@Hippocrates I have posted in the other thread.Thank you.

Incandescent

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2024, 12:19:18 am »
Thanks you @Incandescent - do you think I have grounds to appeal?
My opinion is it is not a winner on its own, because being a Regulation 9 PCN, (one served at the roadside), you have not been disadvantaged because the PCN date is almost certainly the same as the date of the alleged contravention. However it shows sloppiness and bad management in the council, who cannot, apparently, even read the actual regulations on what a PCN should contain.

Hippocrates

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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 08:34:22 am »
Where are we with thread please? Please post in this thread not the other one.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

H C Andersen

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 10:02:54 am »
@Incandescent, as I understand the new regs(https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2/made)
both the discount and 28-day periods now specify 'beginning on date of contravention' not service.

Incandescent

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Re: Croydon Council, Code 27 - parked in front of a verge
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 11:32:03 am »
@Incandescent, as I understand the new regs(https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2/made)
both the discount and 28-day periods now specify 'beginning on date of contravention' not service.
Yes, you are right, in which case there is now no longer any point in the PCN having a separate date to the contravention date.