Author Topic: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement) (Read 1145 times)

Nom1 · « **on:** September 10, 2024, 09:48:34 am »

Penalty Charge Notice: CR19525192
Vehicle Registration Mark: MM67OFW
Date of Contravention: 21/02/2024
Location of Contravention: The Crescent, Croydon by Northcote Rd
Contravention Code Description: 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Firstly, I have already established with Croydon Parking a reduction in the PCN to the original amount on the basis that it was not received.

I had previously mistakenly turned into and immediately reversed out of The Crescent, I took the attached photographs and video (see link below) showing that the sign for the ‘No Right Turn’ into The Crescent was actually pointing in the wrong direction so not visible when driving towards Croydon from the Selhurst direction

Croydon state “There is no requirement for advance warning signs to be in place however we note that you advise the sign had been turned.” For which I have provided photographic and video evidence.

Mandatory requirements are set out in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (as amended) (TSRGD). Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 and this details the mandatory signage for turning into such a junction as The Crescent.

Are Croydon correct in saying that the advanced warning of "No Right Turn" is not mandatory?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZbytVunxWEfgKhtG8

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kfx602ubr62ja70moa7tx/P0006071426_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=lte9ilqw226rv42x8v9yjgwoh&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fkj8qwrhdcpu4qy5kiuai/RE_-Correspondence-Reply-from-London-Borough-of-Croydon-PCN-CR19525192_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=7xlras46cnda80dja7qtvu0pa&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fkj8qwrhdcpu4qy5kiuai/RE_-Correspondence-Reply-from-London-Borough-of-Croydon-PCN-CR19525192_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=7xlras46cnda80dja7qtvu0pa&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kfx602ubr62ja70moa7tx/P0006071426_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=lte9ilqw226rv42x8v9yjgwoh&dl=0

Thanks

Nom

Incandescent · « **Reply #1 on:** September 10, 2024, 10:16:55 am »

Quote

Are Croydon correct in saying that the advanced warning of "No Right Turn" is not mandatory?

Yes, they are, but needless to say they are being economical with the truth. They have a duty under LATOR Regulation 18, to sign a Traffic Order adequately, so if you can demonstrate they haven't done this, then you should win at an adjudication.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18

Problem is the test for adequacy is subjective, so any appeal argument must be well argued. It is no good saying, "well, I missed the signs so they must be inadequate"

H C Andersen · « **Reply #2 on:** September 10, 2024, 10:50:23 am »

OP:

Did you receive the PCN?
Did you make representations?

It would seem that you don't have a Notice of Rejection and as taking your argument anywhere is contingent upon getting one, pl answer the above.

Nom1 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 10, 2024, 10:56:18 am »

Hi Incandescent,

Thanks for your reply. I have looked at the regulation you have provided. LATOR Regulation 18(1) seems to be contradicted by Regulation 18(4) $:-\$ .

The Google Street View images show that this "No Right Turn" sign has been incorrect for over a year (set parallel to the road instead of being at 90 deg). The video and pictures I took also shows the sign being at 90 degrees.

Conveniently Croydon Parking say they have not go the next 15 seconds of the incident showing me reversing out of the road immediately I noticed I had gone through. Selhurst Road is busy, so once taking the turn I couldn't just abandon the manoeuvre.

What to do??

Nom1

Hippocrates · « **Reply #4 on:** September 10, 2024, 11:02:22 am »

Croydon are saying the formal representations were made out of time. Please explain where we are with this as I am having to go through all your linked correspondence.

Nom1 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 10, 2024, 11:21:00 am »

Hi HC

In answer to your questions:

Did you receive the PCN? - I did not receive the original PCN
Did you make representations? - The PCN I did receive (as attached) had the fine at £195 against which I immediately made representations and submitted a PE2 and PE3 (duly authorised by my solicitor) to both TEC and Croydon. When I called TEC they advised the PCN had not been registered by Croydon. I contacted Croydon again and they accepted my representation for the none receipt of the original PCN and reduced the PCN back to £65.00 - but they would not accept that the sign was facing the wrong way $:-\$

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jsz04az9kb7bia751ep8b/2024-06-14-10-56-002-_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=pc9a09m3odaobqpzohceu9fm6&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nl01li77dnj2ktv9knwz3/PCN-CR19525192-Challenge.pdf?rlkey=6uqztcbqxv1edzs93b7ngwnjj&dl=0

It would seem that you don't have a Notice of Rejection and as taking your argument anywhere is contingent upon getting one, pl answer the above

No I haven't received a Notice of Rejection - I know I need this to challenge a PCN through the adjudication route, I have asked Croydon for this NOR but have yet to receive it??

Nom1

Nom1 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2024, 11:40:03 am »

Hi Hippocrates,

I believe I have answered your question subsequently. To recap, formal representations were made to Croydon and they accepted the PCN was not originally received so reduced the PCN to the original amount. Interestingly, Croydon also accepted that they were very slow at answering challenges to PCNs, so when I they originally wrote saying pay within 2 weeks or else the fine will go up again, I challenged this and they gave an addition few weeks to pay.

I challenged Croydon on the fact the "No Right Turn" sign was not visible when driving down the road Croydon responded saying "There is no requirement for advance warning signs to be in place" - It is this statement which I do not believe to be wholly correct.

Nom1

Incandescent · « **Reply #7 on:** September 10, 2024, 12:09:44 pm »

OK, but have you paid the PCN ?

Nom1 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 10, 2024, 04:03:16 pm »

Hi There,

No I have not paid the PCN yet.

Nom1

H C Andersen · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2024, 04:28:55 pm »

Cutting to the chase:

You submitted a stat dec on the grounds - 'did not receive the PCN', correct?

TEC have accepted your SD and notified the council by notice dated 3 Sept;

It's now in the council's court to issue a new PCN.

They have until 3 October to serve a PCN on you which means it must be dated no later than 1 Oct.

the borough council or Transport for London, as the case may be, may not serve a fresh penalty charge notice after the expiry of the period of 28 days from the date of the cancellation of the penalty charge notice or, in a case falling within paragraph (c) above, the date on which that council or body are served with notice under paragraph 7((d) of the said Schedule.

UNLESS...

when you were served with your OfR this was accompanied by a copy of the original PCN.

Was it?

Subject to the above, you do NOT need a NOR at this stage because as far as the procedure is concerned you haven't even been served with a PCN! Pl put all things prior to TEC's decision letter out of your mind for the moment, you're starting afresh.

Nom1 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2024, 05:47:08 pm »

Hi HC

Cutting to the chase:

I submitted the stat dec about not receiving the PCN to TEC. When I called TEC they said Croydon hadn't registered it with them yet, so I submitted to Croydon.

Croydon accepted my SD and reduced the fine from £195 to the original £65.

I am arguing with Croydon on the basis that the road sign indicating "No Right Turn" was not visible whilst driving as it was parallel to the road (not facing the oncoming traffic) and had been like that for a year.

Croydon are saying they don't have to warn about i.e "No Right Turn" restrictions prior to the junction "There is no requirement for advance warning signs to be in place"

I believe Croydon are incorrect. They have given me until 16th September to pay the £65 or it goes up to the increased amount.

Nom1

stamfordman · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2024, 05:58:38 pm »

What do you have from Croydon - do you actually have a PCN?

Nom1 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2024, 06:16:30 pm »

Hi Stamfordman,

Strangely enough, now you mention it, I have never received an actual PCN from Croydon only the "Reminder Letter - Please Do Not Ignore" and subsequent letters in the same format.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/euetu1shrky0dyll8xnaw/2024-06-14-10-56-002-_Redacted.jpg?rlkey=rhb5x7w3ulv9sac82oc02ecyr&dl=0

Does this make a difference?

Thanks

Nom1

stamfordman · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2024, 08:46:01 pm »

I think you should ask them for the PCN as we can't give full advice on reps without it. Also, the idea of the SD process is that you didn't get it!

Hippocrates · « **Reply #14 on:** September 10, 2024, 08:50:33 pm »

Please follow the process.

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Author Topic: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement) (Read 1145 times)

Nom1

Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Incandescent

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

H C Andersen

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Nom1

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Hippocrates

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Nom1

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Nom1

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Incandescent

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Nom1

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

H C Andersen

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Nom1

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

stamfordman

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Nom1

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

stamfordman

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)

Hippocrates

Re: Croydon - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (Camera Enforcement)