Author Topic: Cornwall Council, (40) Parked in a designated disabled bay, Trinity Street-St Austell.  (Read 1691 times)

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Apologies i did originally post this in http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150930

Can i please have your guidance on the following?

I recieved the following https://flic.kr/p/2oTrqHH due to unknowingly parking in a designated bay.

I initially challenged this by trying to show the council that the road markings are in a poor state and have degraded since April 2017.
https://flic.kr/p/2oTrsTp
https://flic.kr/p/2oTtxRL
https://flic.kr/p/2oToyrv
https://flic.kr/p/2oTtYXL
https://flic.kr/p/2oToyye
https://flic.kr/p/2oTtZ2y

I also put in some references of the TRAFFIC SIGNS Manual - Chapter 3 regulatory signs paras 13.6.2 and 13.11.4 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf)

However, the appeal was refused:
https://flic.kr/p/2oTp5L8
https://flic.kr/p/2oTuvbM

Can the council decide to opt in or out as they please when it comes to providing adequate signage?

https://goo.gl/maps/mxHBBEFfMpuNama89

I have now recieved a NTO
https://flic.kr/p/2oTovHp
https://flic.kr/p/2oTtvug
https://flic.kr/p/2oTsn5B
https://flic.kr/p/2oTrqC7

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I'll copy this over from what I put in PPP

The way TSRGD is worded now, there is no call for disabled legend nor for a marked bay, differing paving, tarmac is often regarded as enough to show it is a parking bay.
However, lack of white lines can see an adjudicator find that markings were inadequate and allow an appeal.
Especially as google seems to show very faded white lines.
Your photos seem to confirm this.

What the council says is correct, if you park in a bay it is up to you to check for restrictions...ie pole signs.
But they don't seem to appreciate that if you don't realise that you are in a bay due to poor markings, the duty to check for restriction signs is academic

we need to see the council photos to see just what the evidence is go online and get them or phone and ask


Yep, photo evidence https://flic.kr/p/2oTuvbM
I think that is known as creative photography  :)
Without a sign of the bay markings or lack of them.

Obviously make reps.

I refer to the above PCN and your rejection letter dated 27 June.

My representations against the NTO dated 28 July are under the grounds that the contravention did not occur for the following reasons.

Before setting these out I would like to establish the important contextual facts as regards the location:
1. The parking bay extends for 25m and is not marked with perimeter or intra-bay white lines;
2. There is a single traffic sign situated at one extreme of the bay;
3. My car was parked at the other end of the bay, 25m away;
4. There appears to be a slight difference in the surface treatment of the bay compared to the main carriageway which is uniform throughout the bay.

The above mean that:
If the bay's markings are substantially compliant with legal requirements then the whole bay is reserved for disabled BB holders and is subject to the restrictions in the sign.

I dispute that the markings are compliant and therefore the bay was not lawfully marked, its restrictions have no legal effect and, contrary to the point belaboured in your rejection, a motorist is not obliged to look for a traffic sign after parking.

Consequently, the contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.

If the authority dispute the above, then in any rejection they must establish their grounds for substantial compliance which, given the absence of compliant white lines, could only be based upon the bay being 'varied to contrast, in pattern or colour, from the surrounding parts of the road and any adjoining bays' (para. 2(3) of Part 5 of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs etc. regs refers). In this respect, I would refer the authority to the attached photos which are snapshots of the location taken from GSV over the period ** to 2023 which show that the once pristine white lines have been allowed to deteriorate and that the differential surface treatment, such as it is, has remained the same throughout.

For comment.
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I would add a comment....
Without obvious let alone compliant markings, the council have failed in their duty under Local Authority Traffic Order Regulations 1996 S18 to place and maintain traffic signs as needed to clearly show any restriction.
Without clear indication that this place is a restricted area, the motorist is under no obligation to check further for signage.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18/made
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 09:26:17 am by DancingDad »

I would not make mention of all the reasons why it could be compliant that's the councils job you just state why it is not No markings and only sign that you found aftr the issue of the PCN at the far end of the bay and not obvious being against the wall

@DancingDad, LATOR only refers to signs which the council think are necessary and there is one, albeit at the far end, and I don't see how an adjudicator could find that this was not compliant. It might not be what they would do or prefer, but I can't see that it is not substantially compliant.

I wondered whether perhaps the space at the end was a disabled bay with the others, including the OP's, having a different, unsigned, restriction. But GSV and the amendments to the orders show this not to be the case.

@PMB, my concern with not setting out the legal argument which underpins my draft is that this is almost inviting the numbskulls to reject because they don't know. I see nothing wrong with guiding their thinking.

@DancingDad, LATOR only refers to signs which the council think are necessary and there is one, albeit at the far end, and I don't see how an adjudicator could find that this was not compliant. It might not be what they would do or prefer, but I can't see that it is not substantially compliant.

Signs in the terms of LATOR also relates to lines.
The lack of clear lines falls full square into your comments on compliance, there were lines, they have faded to the point of not being readily visible, council have failed in their duty to maintain.

@PMB, my concern with not setting out the legal argument which underpins my draft is that this is almost inviting the numbskulls to reject because they don't know. I see nothing wrong with guiding their thinking.

I agree, end of the day the council can explain, ignore or whatever.
But sets up potential appeal should it get that far.

@DancingDad, LATOR only refers to signs which the council think are necessary and there is one, albeit at the far end, and I don't see how an adjudicator could find that this was not compliant. It might not be what they would do or prefer, but I can't see that it is not substantially compliant.

Signs in the terms of LATOR also relates to lines.
The lack of clear lines falls full square into your comments on compliance, there were lines, they have faded to the point of not being readily visible, council have failed in their duty to maintain.

@PMB, my concern with not setting out the legal argument which underpins my draft is that this is almost inviting the numbskulls to reject because they don't know. I see nothing wrong with guiding their thinking.

I feel that what you do in that respect is give them a reason to reject telling them you know the surface is different and that there is a sign is also likely to sway an adjudicator. For me you need to tell them why you parked as you did and point out the lack of clear unambiguous signage for if the signage fails that test then LATOR is not complied with and the PCN falls That cannot happen if you tell them you know what the signage means

I agree, end of the day the council can explain, ignore or whatever.
But sets up potential appeal should it get that far.

@DancingDad, LATOR only refers to signs which the council think are necessary and there is one, albeit at the far end, and I don't see how an adjudicator could find that this was not compliant. It might not be what they would do or prefer, but I can't see that it is not substantially compliant.

Signs in the terms of LATOR also relates to lines.
The lack of clear lines falls full square into your comments on compliance, there were lines, they have faded to the point of not being readily visible, council have failed in their duty to maintain.

@PMB, my concern with not setting out the legal argument which underpins my draft is that this is almost inviting the numbskulls to reject because they don't know. I see nothing wrong with guiding their thinking.

I agree, end of the day the council can explain, ignore or whatever.
But sets up potential appeal should it get that far.

I also raised this issue with Cornwall Highways, who have accepted and verified that work is required on the road markings!

do you have that in writing?
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I'm never one to guarantee a win but this looks like a slam dunk with that email
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