Author Topic: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma  (Read 1814 times)

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Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #15 on: »

Any advice?

 '..A response[to your informal reps] was sent [ to the email address given] on 22/12/2023... I have attached a copy..'


Where is it? We need to see whether the discount was re-offered and what conditions applied.

Also, have you checked your junk etc. mail?

I too was confused; I assumed the letter's continuation was a copy from the email.
Upon reviewing the "key events," I noticed the discount was only re-offered now till 02/01/24,  (see attached).
Does this suggest they never sent that email response? I checked my spam and regular inbox multiple times but definitely didn't receive it.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BvvRH7ZdTfhEaCnw8

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #16 on: »
CODE: 62
Penalty charge level:
Higher
Code description:
Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any
part of the road other than a carriageway.
Code contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits on any part of
a footpath or footway.
Extra information to be recorded:
•   Number of wheels on the footway
•   Diagram or photograph of the parking position.
Loading/unloading allowed:
Yes, but only if it is essential so as not to cause an
obstruction and cannot be carried out elsewhere.
Observation period:
If essential as described above, then yes.
Exemptions:
DNOP
Notes:

Note the exemption

O. A vehicle waiting while a gate or barrier is opened/closed
to allow access or departure to/from premises

All you say suggest you have a very strong case at tribunal  so i would carry on

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #17 on: »
OP, where is the response to your earlier reps, we must see it and they say it was enclosed?

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #18 on: »
OP, where is the response to your earlier reps, we must see it and they say it was enclosed?
As mentioned earlier, I haven't received any letter or email!
I've attached all the papers/emails I received - in this post, there's no additional information.
Do you think I should ask the council to resend their response to my earlier representations?
Also, my discount is ending soon.
Many thanks

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #19 on: »
I don't know why we need to see it the requirement of the regs is to consider an informal challenge not respond so as the process has moved on to NOR that is what needs be dealt with

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #20 on: »
But they did put their reasoning in writing and therefore it forms part of the evidence trail.

The OP's position has been consistent. We need to check whether the council's responses are similar.

We haven't yet seen the PCN (!!) and therefore the issue of obs time is still an unknown.

We still do not know definitively whether the discount was re-offered, although one could guess from 'Key Events'.

The NOR does not address the issues which arise under 15(3), 15(4), 15(7) and 15(11), did the initial response?

IMO, we need to see their response.

But if we don't, we don't.

But OP, at least post the PCN.

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #21 on: »
But they did put their reasoning in writing and therefore it forms part of the evidence trail.

The OP's position has been consistent. We need to check whether the council's responses are similar.

We haven't yet seen the PCN (!!) and therefore the issue of obs time is still an unknown.

We still do not know definitively whether the discount was re-offered, although one could guess from 'Key Events'.

The NOR does not address the issues which arise under 15(3), 15(4), 15(7) and 15(11), did the initial response?

IMO, we need to see their response.

But if we don't, we don't.

But OP, at least post the PCN.

Thank you for your response. I've included all the documents in the links provided in the posts, as resizing and attaching directly is a bit complicated.
Here's a new link with everything: https://photos.app.goo.gl/FopLEd9DKPLxyDf97
Let me know if there's any problem viewing it.
Additionally, I'm attaching as many main documents as possible directly in this post. But please check the link for more details
Thanks.

P.S. If necessary, My appeal to the council on 30/10/23: "Dear London Borough of Haringey, I challenge liability on the basis that my vehicle was not parked, it was merely stopped. Section 15(1) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 uses the expression "parked", which is seldom used in legislation, but is generally understood to mean waiting. On this occasion I was delivering goods to North London Cost Shop, the shop has off-street parking but when I arrived the gate was locked. I therefore had to stop my car temporarily to get the key from the shop staff so I could open the gate. Stopping temporarily to open a gate or other barrier to off-street land is not a contravention on red routes, loading restrictions or other locations, because such temporary stopping is not deemed to be "waiting" within the meaning of the legislation. I would contend that in these circumstances my vehicle was not "parked" within the meaning of section 15(1) of the 1974 Act, because my vehicle was merely temporarily stopped and it remained stopped for no longer than was strictly necessary for me to open the gate and drive the vehicle into the off-street land attached to the shop. As my vehicle was not parked, the alleged contravention did not occur. Yours faithfully"

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« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 03:13:08 pm by zwi »

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #22 on: »
Today is the last day I can pay the reduce penalty charge. Please advice if and how to appeal. 
Can somebody please draft me a letter to make the appeal to the adjudicator.
Thank for kind help

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #23 on: »
What you were doing is a well known activity, and it has won appeals in the past at PATAS (the old name for London Tribunals) and also at London Tribunals.

I can only suggest that you register an appeal at London Tribunals.

I would suggest you could alter them slightly: -

"I challenge liability on the basis that my vehicle was not parked, but was temporarily stopped waiting access to gated premises in order to unload goods.

On the day concerned, I was engaged in delivering goods to the North London Cost Shop. The shop has gated off-street parking where deliveries are made, but when I arrived for the booked delivery, the gate was locked. I therefore had to leave my car temporarily to get the key from the shop staff so I could open the gate. Stopping temporarily to open a gate or other barrier to off-street land is not a contravention because such temporary stopping is not "waiting" within the meaning of the legislation. I contend that leaving my vehicle to obtain keys in order to enter the premises was part of the loading activity. Loading is not just the physical unloading of goods from a vehicle and their delivery to premises, but includes all the activities necessary to start and complete the loading.

I therefore contend that in the circumstances described above, my vehicle was not "parked" because my vehicle was merely temporarily stopped for no longer than was strictly necessary for me to obtain keys, open the gate and drive the vehicle into the off-street land attached to the shop. As my vehicle was not parked, the alleged contravention did not occur. Yours faithfully"

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #24 on: »
Adjudicators will not always go with the argument waiting isn't stopping use the exemption i posted earlier  File your appeal and write only " i rely on my representations and will add further evidence later

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #25 on: »
Adjudicators will not always go with the argument waiting isn't stopping use the exemption i posted earlier  File your appeal and write only " i rely on my representations and will add further evidence later

Thanks for the advice.
Just don't understand: why "later" will I have further evidence? i.e. what will change then?

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #26 on: »
You will see the council evidence which should include the resolution, but when I typed yesterday i was thinking I might draft an appeal for you but am out of the UK ATM so cannot do so until I return next week

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #27 on: »
Adjudicators will not always go with the argument waiting isn't stopping use the exemption i posted earlier  File your appeal and write only " i rely on my representations and will add further evidence later

Thanks for the advice.
Just don't understand: why "later" will I have further evidence? i.e. what will change then?

Because tactically it is more often than not better to bat second.  This is our usual advice and has been for years.  And it works.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #28 on: »
Just to expand on this a little for the benefit of the OP...

Producing an evidence pack is a specialist job, it requires a considerable investment of time (and therefore money) on the council's part by someone who knows the fine points of all rules intimately. This means that it's the first point in the process where the council risks anything much more than the price of sending a couple of letters. They make you play 'double-or-quit' with the discount, making them produce an evidence pack is point where they have to up the stakes on their side. We often see councils fold at this point, which they do by presenting no evidence. This is one good reason to let them go first... you would be wasting your time assembling your evidence if they don't present anything.

Sometimes they fold because it's the first time anyone who understands some of the more technical challenges to PCNs will ever look at what you have been saying which means it's also the first time the council know they will lose at adjudication. Some more cynical councils play a numbers game, they know a lot of people will fold at the NTO stage, so they go that far even in cases where they don't have a leg to stand on. Occasionally they fold because they lack the resources to produce decent evidence packs, Barking and Dagenham seemed to go through a phase of not being able to produce evidence packs at all for several months last year. So another reason to let them go first is that they might not bother.

Another reason is to maximise their workload. If you go first and only have 1 or 2 lines of defence, they can do less work and concentrate purely on rebutting your points. If you make them go first they have to cover all possibilities, which they probably won't do so well. Because councils are weighing up the cost of carrying on against the chances of winning, they have to wager a bit more (non-reclaimable) effort and are therefore more likely to fold when they know they will lose.

This leads to another reason: some defects in council documentation only come to light at this stage. We sometimes see councils folding for no readily understandable reason. Given the fact that we quite often find defective (or missing) TMOs and TMOs that don't match up to signage, it's reasonable to suspect that sometimes the council finds this sort of thing out in the process of producing evidence packs, and folds rather than having to admit they messed up.

Next, there's the old military adage that you should never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake. A lot of the time cases are won at tribunal not on anything to do with the alleged offence, but because the council has missed something essential out of the evidence pack, produced the wrong documents, or not understood that their documents are not up to scratch. So, this is another reason to let them go first: Allow them to shoot themselves in the foot.

Others could probably add to the list, but I hope that's enough to explain it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2024, 01:51:46 am by Grant Urismo »

Re: Contravention Code 62(4) - Parking on Footpath: Unloading Dilemma
« Reply #29 on: »
Succinctly expressed.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r