Author Topic: Redbridge - obscured parking sign  (Read 577 times)

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Redbridge - obscured parking sign
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Council: London Borough of Redbridge

Alleged contravention: parked in a permit space or zone without clearly displaying a valid permit

Location: Northumberland avenue, Aldersbrook (near junction with Ingatestone Road, next to playground of Aldersbrook primary school)

Google maps link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qNm4kTQzDNqkdj9h6


On 27/10/23 I parked on a road I mistakenly thought allowed parking for 3 hours without a permit. I avoided the double yellow lines and the only sign I could see stated 3 hours was permitted (I have since learnt that signs on the opposite side do not apply, so I should have ignored this sign). I received a PCN notice and then realised there was a sign but, from my parking spot, this was invisible due to a large overhanging tree. I contested the PCN but this was rejected and I have now received a “notice to owner”. I need to decide whether to pay the £130 or contest it on the grounds that the sign was obscured. There were additional signs further down the road but I would have needed to walk a long way to see them.


I will paste my original contest statement below (please ignore spelling errors!). Since submitting this I have realised that signs on the opposite side of the road do not apply.


Does anyone have any advice please on whether I should submit a representation or just pay the fine? And if I do submit a representation, what should I emphasise? Any help would be very gratefully received


The council have submitted a photo of the sign clearly visible from the other side of the tree but I have a photo of the signpost from my parking space which shows the tree completely obscuring the sign. Any advice would be much appreciated. I do not want to pay £130 unnecessarily but equally do not want to risk having to pay more than this.


“I parked on Northumberland Avenue to visit the children's centre on Ingatestone Road. I checked all visible signage and avoided parking on Ingatestone Road (which allows 30mins only) and the double yellow lines on Northumberland Avenue. The only remainable viable sineage was on Northumberland avenue (opposite where I parked) and this stated I could stay for 3 hours. I looked up and down the road on both sides for some distance and saw no further sineage and so, in the absence of double yellows and any sineage stating otherwise, was led to believe I could park for 3 hours, as per the only visible sign.



Upon discovering the fine, I walked approx 50m along the road and saw that there was a sign stating that my side of the road was for residents only. This sign was heavily concealed by a large overgrown tree and would only be visible via walking into the road or doing a 50m walk. I was alone with my preschooler and my toddler who has developmental delays, leaving her unable to walk. Hence it would be unreasonable, unfeasible and unsafe for us to have walked the distance required to realise that, behind a large overgrown tree, there was another sign contradicting the sineage that was available to us (i.e. double yellow lines which I ensured didn't apply where I parked and only one visible sign, stating we could reasonably stay 3 hours).



If we had been unduly disregarding parking regulations we would have parked on Ingatestone Road outside the children's centre but we instead checked multiple sources of information to park where, based on available signage, we believed we were permitted to park.



I fully support parking restrictions and enforcement and work hard to ensure that I adhere to them at all times, as well as regularly explaining to my children how important it is to follow these rules. I am disappointed that poor maintenance of a privately owned tree has left me unable to see any restrictive signage, despite extensive effort to ensure rule adherence on my part. I certainly will not park in that location again, having realised that there is an intention to restrict it but I would like to politely request the PCN is cancelled on this occasion and that the tree owner is supported to recognise their responsibility to ensure signage is visible to road users.




I have attached photographic evidence showing the double yellow lines I avoided, the only visible sineage saying I could park for 3 hours and the tree which completely impedes the only sineage showing the location was restricted to residents only.”


Council photo showing sign (the tree that obscured my view is visible on the right):





My photo of tree obscuring sign (car shown was parked between my car and the sign):





My photo depicting where my car was parked:





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Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #1 on: »
Is this location in a Restricted Parking ZOne ?  Reason I ask is because ordinarily, for a timed restriction, there should be a single yellow line to alert the motorist that there is a restriction. The motorist must then look for the sign defining the restrictions.

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #2 on: »
Is this location in a Restricted Parking ZOne ?  Reason I ask is because ordinarily, for a timed restriction, there should be a single yellow line to alert the motorist that there is a restriction. The motorist must then look for the sign defining the restrictions.

Ooh interesting point, thank you. I'm not 100% sure to be honest.
I've checked on the Redbridge website and can't quite tell if Northumberland avenue is included in the controlled zone (indicated by the grey boundary line) or not?!  :-\


« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 09:46:16 am by ehc394042 »

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #3 on: »
It looks like imgur removed the images I uploaded for some reason. >:(

Here's the images reposted with a different hosting provider:

Council photo showing sign (the tree that obscured my view is visible on the right):




My photo of tree obscuring sign (car shown was parked between my car and the sign):




My photo depicting where my car was parked:

« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 09:59:03 am by ehc394042 »

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #4 on: »
Does anyone have any advice please? Or was there something I did wrong on my post that means I did not get many replies?

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #5 on: »
As you say all of Northumberland avenue is in the ALH cpz.on the park side anyone can park for 3 hours. On the side with the houses its ALH residents only during the controlled hours. If you need any pictures let me know can get some very easily.

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #6 on: »

???
Where are the council's pictures??

The contravention relates to a parking place and has nothing to do with CPZs, RPZs or DMZs.

1. Either the road on your side was marked with parking bay markings(see item 6 in Part 4 here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made ) in which case you were obliged to look for the regulating traffic sign on your side, or

2. You were parked in a permit parking area which applied ONLY to your side of the road(never heard of such a thing) in which there would be NO road markings and the traffic signs merely repeated the restriction on the PPA entry sign.

So far, with respect, everything has been off target.

I can't make head or tail of your account...and as the PCN was issued in October where are you in the process e.g. you have received a Notice to Owner etc.

I have a feeling time is pressing. 

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #7 on: »
As you say all of Northumberland avenue is in the ALH cpz.on the park side anyone can park for 3 hours. On the side with the houses its ALH residents only during the controlled hours. If you need any pictures let me know can get some very easily.

Thank you, much appreciated. Seems I'm learning a tough lesson the hard way that signs only apply to one side of the road. Thank you so much for your kind offer re pictures.

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #8 on: »

???
Where are the council's pictures??

The contravention relates to a parking place and has nothing to do with CPZs, RPZs or DMZs.

1. Either the road on your side was marked with parking bay markings(see item 6 in Part 4 here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made ) in which case you were obliged to look for the regulating traffic sign on your side, or

2. You were parked in a permit parking area which applied ONLY to your side of the road(never heard of such a thing) in which there would be NO road markings and the traffic signs merely repeated the restriction on the PPA entry sign.

So far, with respect, everything has been off target.

I can't make head or tail of your account...and as the PCN was issued in October where are you in the process e.g. you have received a Notice to Owner etc.

I have a feeling time is pressing.

Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate it and I'm sorry my description wasn't clear.

Number 2 is correct i.e I was parked in a permit area. It was residents only where I parked but anyone could park for 3 hours on the other side of the road.

The sign on my side of the road was obscured by a tree. I could not see it without leaving my car and walking beyond the tree to see it. (At which point I would have been unable to see my car).

My question is, does the tree obscuring the sign give me grounds to dispute the fine?

The top photo is a council photo showing the sign. The 2nd photo is a photo I took standing next to my car showing the same signpost almost entirely obscured by a tree. The road had no markings, no bays and no visible signs on my side of the road from where I parked. I am wondering if this gives me grounds to appeal on the basis that "There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority" or would I be better off saying "the contravention did not occur" (i.e. because the sign was obscured).

The notice to owner was dated 19th December so I think my 28 days is up on 16th Jan so time is pressing, yes.

I am open to honest feedback, if people think I should just pay it then I will save myself the heartache of contesting it. But if people think I have a chance I would welcome advice on how to word it. Thank you in advance.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 09:30:20 pm by ehc394042 »

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #9 on: »
I didn't get many replies to this post so was navigating in the dark somewhat, but I just wanted to share that I attended a hearing with the London tribunals adjudicator yesterday and was successful; the adjudicator has written to Redbridge council directing them to cancel the PCN and the notice to owner.

The hours it took me to pull together my submission probably wasn't worth the cost saving but the sense of justice is priceless.

Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #10 on: »
Well done :)

2240082930?

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Re: Redbridge - obscured parking sign
« Reply #11 on: »
Well done indeed, outcome here.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order