3. Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
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Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
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We managed to pick up not one, but two Penalty Charge Notices on Tottenham Court Road on 5 December within 2 minutes of each other.

We were in London for a hospital appointment and then drove into the West End.  We normally drive home via the Euston Road but we had real problems on the way into London because of various road works so decided to use an alternative route home.  Unfortunately, that had roadworks too so we ended up on the Tottenham Court Road. 

We had no idea that restrictions have been in place for some time and didn't see any signs, but one is clearly visible in the video for the 14:58 PCN.  The 14:56 PCN sign is not as visible in the video.


First PCN at 14:56: 


GSV:
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps. · maps.app.goo.gl




Second PCN at 14:58:


GSV: 
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps. · maps.app.goo.gl



Do we have an argument here at all? 

If nothing else, can we argue for payment of one PCN rather than two?

Many thanks





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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
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Quote
can we argue for payment of one PCN rather than two?
Of course you can, basically on the basis of a disproportionate penalty for a simple mistake of navigation in London. However you will be arguing in mitigation as each PCN is for a different location.

That's my view, others may differ.  In addition, there may well be a 'technical'defence based on the council's management of the enforcement process.  One of our experts on here is expert at finding holes in their armour plate, or even punching through it !!
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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #2 on: »
Thank you. That will be worth a try if all else fails.

I'm hoping there aren't more in the pipeline as we travelled the length of Tottenham Court Road!  I could only see two on the Camden website.
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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #3 on: »
All pages please of the PCN so that I can get my hole-puncher out. ;D
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@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #4 on: »
Hi Hippocrates, thank you for your msg.

Back page to 1st PCN - Tottenham Court Road/Chenies Street at 14:56:


Back page to 2nd PCN - Tottenham Court Road/Howlands Street at 14:58:


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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #5 on: »
Just the two, one of which you have repeated?
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@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #6 on: »
There are 2 PCNs which have two sides, 4 pages in total. The reverse of both PCNs looks exactly the same to me but I've posted them both in case I've missed something.

Can you see all 4 pages, Hippocrates?
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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #7 on: »
3 only.
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@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #8 on: »
This should be the first PCN from Tottenham Court Road/Chenies Street:

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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #9 on: »
This should be the second PCN from Tottenham Court Road/Howland Street two minutes later at 14:58


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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #10 on: »
Can you see all 4 pages now, Hippocrates?

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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #11 on: »
Is anyone able to offer any advice on whether there's an argument to be had regarding our two PCN's or should we just bite the bullet and pay up before the 14 days runs out?

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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #12 on: »
I would pay the first and make reps on the second saying you've paid the first and would they kindly exercise discretion on the second owing to the close timing and difficulty in navigating the area to a hospital appointment.

That is unless Hippo has something.
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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: stamfordman on December 14, 2024, 03:13:48 pm
I would pay the first and make reps on the second saying you've paid the first and would they kindly exercise discretion on the second owing to the close timing and difficulty in navigating the area to a hospital appointment.

That is unless Hippo has something.

That sounds like a good plan, thank you. 

I haven't heard anything from Hippocrates but hopefully he'll get back to me over the weekend.

Thanks again.
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Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only
« Reply #14 on: »
The online taken without consent ground clearly limits to theft:

At the time the alleged contravention or failure took place the person who was in control of the vehicle was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner (please provide a copy of the police crime report or insurance claim).
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@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Like Like x 1 View List
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  3. Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain vehicles local buses and cycles only