Author Topic: Camden PCN received due to driving through a experimental traffic order  (Read 146 times)

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m_odwong@hotmail.com

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Hi there,

I received a PCN driving through Elsworthy Road at a time when an experimental traffic order is in place limiting traffic to permit holders only between 3 - 4pm.

I don't live in the area, I was following a route the satnav recommended and simply didn't notice the sign posts. There was no other clear identifiers to indicate I was driving through a restricted area.

Is there anything here that can help me get the PCN cancelled? I read somewhere that experimental traffic orders are only valid for 18 months, is there anywhere to confirm the validity of this particular order?

PCN attached, sorry it may have come out a bit small and blurry, let me know if it's too difficult to read.

I've only got two days left to pay the reduced 50% rate, although both the payment site and phone option want to charge me the full 100% eventhough I'm still within the 28 days period. Would I have to make a representation as well in order to pay %0 of the charge?

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Incandescent

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Re: Camden PCN received due to driving through a experimental traffic order
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2023, 10:11:49 pm »
Quote
There was no other clear identifiers to indicate I was driving through a restricted area.
I'm afraid the entry signs are the only identifiers you get with these schemes. Yes it is pretty poor, but this is England 2023 ! Some councils will put planters and other obstacles to indicate physically there is a restriction, but people even drive past these ! The councils have no incentive whatsoever to make restrictions clear, because they keep all the money from the PCNs that are paid, and 95% of them are paid.

Using satnav without paying close attention to signs is fatal in London, and will get you a load of PCNs if you do this a lot. The signs to look out for are what we call the "Flying motorbike" signs, showing a motorbike symbol above a car symbol. They mean, to all intents and purposes, NO ENTRY to motorists during any time period shown below the sign.

If you submit representations, it is almost certain the discount will be re-offered, but it's not guaranteed.
What can win is absence of advance warning of the restriction, especially if you turn left into the restricted street. I had a look on GSV, and it is not recent enough to show the signs restricting entry, so you'd have to do some leg work with a camera/mobile phone to show us what is in place.

cp8759

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Re: Camden PCN received due to driving through a experimental traffic order
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2023, 12:03:09 am »
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iolT9cirEI

You've missed the discount and you're about to run out of time to make representations as well, the deadline is midnight on Sunday. We don't have time to get the traffic order, please post up the remaining pages of the PCN.

Realistically you'll have to just make a holding representation saying the contravention did not occur, and if there are any more arguable grounds we'll have to keep them in reserve for the tribunal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

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Re: Camden PCN received due to driving through a experimental traffic order
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2023, 05:20:08 pm »
I might have found a more arguable ground.

There are two orders named The Camden (Elsworthy Road) Experimental Traffic Order 2022, one made in July 2022 and one made in December 2022.

The obvious point to take is that "term time" is not defined, and the council would need to prove that it was "term time". It probably was, but whether they could prove that is another matter.

@m_odwong@hotmail.com did you make a representation before the deadline as I suggested?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

m_odwong@hotmail.com

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Re: Camden PCN received due to driving through a experimental traffic order
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2023, 09:19:47 pm »
Thanks for following up! Apologies, I missed your previous response.

I send them a quick email stating the discount wasn't applied and that there was unclear and insufficient warning. Haven't heard back yet.

Out of interest, where did you obtain the video, I only saw some pictures? And would you still like me to attach the remaining part of the PCN?

Regards,
Maikol

cp8759

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Re: Camden PCN received due to driving through a experimental traffic order
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2023, 09:09:24 pm »
The video is at https://camden.tarantoportal.com/

Yes, please upload the remaining pages.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order