3. Bus Lane PCN
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Injustice204

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Bus Lane PCN
« on: April 03, 2024, 11:40:04 am »
The registered keeper of the vehicle received a penalty charge notice from Barking & Dagenham Council within the last 9-10 days.
The driver of said vehicle was visiting a client and was not used to the area or roads.
The driver pulled out in to the bus lane from a petrol station and drove in the bus lane for 30 yards.
There was a sign showing that the bus lane ended- this was the only sign the driver noticed, by that point the lane had already finished.
It was in the evening and therefore road markings were not clearly visible.
It was also a busy road and the driver's focus was on exiting the petrol station safely and not causing an obstruction.
In addition, the route the driver was taking to the client's property meant exiting the upcoming roundabout on the first exit. The driver entered the left lane to anticipate this. This left lane being the bus lane that ended within 30 yards of entering it. Overall driver was potentially in the bus lane for 2-5 seconds according to the driver.
Pictures of area and signage attached and PCN letter.
First Google street view image shows petrol station the driver exited from and the second google street view photo shows what was opposite to the petrol station exit.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2024, 12:34:23 pm »
As per the other site, please post up the whole PCN and give us the VRM and PCN number details.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Injustice204

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2024, 01:40:49 pm »
Hi,

Just to confirm re PCN...when referring to requiring the whole PCN, do you mean the back of it as well as the front cover?

Thanks
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Injustice204

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2024, 03:18:53 pm »
PCN number: BZ80352064
REG: GV62KBZ
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Hippocrates

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2024, 03:52:36 pm »
Quote from: Injustice204 on April 03, 2024, 01:40:49 pm
Hi,

Just to confirm re PCN...when referring to requiring the whole PCN, do you mean the back of it as well as the front cover?

Thanks
The whole thing.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Injustice204

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2024, 05:23:21 pm »
Please find rest of PCN attached.
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cp8759

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2024, 09:32:31 pm »
Quote from: Injustice204 on April 03, 2024, 11:40:04 am
The driver of said vehicle was visiting a client and was not used to the area or roads.
For statutory PCNs liability rests with the owner no matter who was driving, so you can drop all this "the driver" nonsense, which can actually backfire.

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8bVpPXd3Ps

I don't see how the signage could possibly be adequate: https://maps.app.goo.gl/iwH6rMbLyt5BkDH38

Here is The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (North Street, London Road, Wood  Lane, Cambridge Road, Linton Road, Ripple Road, New Road and Longbridge Road) (Bus Lane) Order 2002.

That being said, they likely won't get the video admitted into evidence, that's the reason we've not lost a London bus lane case since July 2021 and I don't see why that would change now.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 11:39:01 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2024, 09:45:03 pm »
@cp8759 It's drawing straws time again.  ;D
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Injustice204

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2024, 10:23:47 pm »
Apologies, I am not trying to shift the blame. I was just trying to be precise with my language. I completely understand that I am liable for the vehicle. My understanding was that it is best to talk more in the third person tense when explaining the situation.
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Injustice204

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2024, 10:40:11 pm »
These responses give me some semblance of hope!
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cp8759

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2024, 11:39:34 pm »
Quote from: Injustice204 on April 03, 2024, 10:40:11 pm
These responses give me some semblance of hope!
It's better than that, as I said we've not lost a London bus lane case since July 2021. It's the council that has very little hope of getting anywhere with this, as long as you hold your nerve and see this through to the end.

I'm tempted to say you might as well wait for the enforcement notice and make formal representations against that.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2024, 11:11:36 am »
I am thinking of the Fifth Set and would respectfully advise doing a draft re the signage as an informal challenge which, of course, they will reject.  I am thinking of costs, possibly, if won. A costs application was won yesterday because the important issue was raised from the outset and intransigently rejected. (Bromley).

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/bus-lane-ticket-barking-and-dagenham/msg5163/#msg5163

******

Draft:

Dear Sirs

Ref:  PCN no. BZ80352064  VRM GV62 KBZ

I make this initial submission against the PCN as follows:

1.  The PCN does not state the exact locus of the alleged contravention.

2.  The video evidence shows no relevant warning signage allegedly passed by the vehicle concerned.

3.  Unless you can provide me with strict proof that the camera has the correct VCA certificate to satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal as provided at para. 7(2) of Schedule I of the London Local Authorities Act 1996(as amended), there was no breach.

Therefore, in view of the above, please cancel the PCN as you have not proved the alleged contravention.

Yours faithfully

Name

Address

******************

OP: please confirm who was driving.  And who is the registered keeper as this is driving me nuts!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 04:54:11 pm by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Injustice204

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2024, 06:24:30 pm »
Thank you for the draft.

For absolute clarity, I am the registered keeper and I was driving the vehicle.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2024, 09:27:41 pm »
So, please submit it verbatim and keep a record.  I am happy to go the full distance with you free of charge.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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cp8759

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Re: Bus Lane PCN
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2024, 12:17:16 am »
@Injustice204 I'd go with Hippocrates's suggestion & offer of representation, he has more capacity than me to take on new cases at the moment and you can't really go wrong with a London bus lane case.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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