Author Topic: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council  (Read 3172 times)

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Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #30 on: »
I make it about 6 months from their rejection of your original reps, so this must surely be a very strong candidate for the PCN to be cancelled due to the unfairness of sending the EN over 6 months after the date of the rejection notice.
Something to go in any reps to London Tribunals, I think.

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #31 on: »
Has anyone spotted what is wrong with the Enforcement Notice yet? I am staying silent. Clue: top right hand corner.
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #32 on: »
The date of service?

Which says 15/07/2026, which is impossible as you cannot have served something in the future.
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Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #33 on: »
Exactly. Similar case:



It truncates the period in which you can make representations. I will deal with this one please from here on. Also it prescribes the date of service which is wrong in law. Perhaps Dr Who wrote that document?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2026, 10:21:40 pm by Hippocrates »
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #34 on: »
The date of service?

Which says 15/07/2026, which is impossible as you cannot have served something in the future.
I'm not sure that is unreasonable, if the EN is posted two days earlier which was yesterday, or maybe last Friday 10th July. I say this because Schedule 1 of the LLA Act 1996 says this regarding EN content: -

Quote
(2)An enforcement notice must state—

(a)the amount of the penalty charge payable;

(b)the grounds on which the council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;

(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the enforcement notice is served;

(d)that failure to pay the penalty charge may lead to an increased charge being payable;

(e)the amount of that increased charge;

(f)that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 2 below; and

(g)the effect of paragraph 6 below.
So really the "served on" date is an anticipated date based on postage times and therefore tells the recipient that the council will start counting the 28 days from that date.  Of course the word "anticipated" isn't on the EN. so maybe it is wrong.

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #35 on: »
You have agreed with my point! It should simply show the date of the notice.

Website:

There was no breach of the bus lane order / regulation
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the contravention occurred
The vehicle had been taken without the keepers consent (i.e. it was stolen)
The police are taking action for the same offence
I am a key worker
I wish to make representations about this PCN for other reasons

*********

Also, let's not be shy: please show the name of the officer who signed the rejection letter as they are public servants.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2026, 11:16:21 pm by Hippocrates »
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #36 on: »
The date of service?

Which says 15/07/2026, which is impossible as you cannot have served something in the future.
I'm not sure that is unreasonable, if the EN is posted two days earlier which was yesterday, or maybe last Friday 10th July. I say this because Schedule 1 of the LLA Act 1996 says this regarding EN content: -

Quote
(2)An enforcement notice must state—

(a)the amount of the penalty charge payable;

(b)the grounds on which the council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;

(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the enforcement notice is served;

(d)that failure to pay the penalty charge may lead to an increased charge being payable;

(e)the amount of that increased charge;

(f)that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 2 below; and

(g)the effect of paragraph 6 below.
So really the "served on" date is an anticipated date based on postage times and therefore tells the recipient that the council will start counting the 28 days from that date.  Of course the word "anticipated" isn't on the EN. so maybe it is wrong.

I did think this but I was just responding to Hippocrates as to what I thought could potentially be wrong

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #37 on: »
Hadn't intentionally redacted it. Just didn't post this part of the rejection.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2026, 11:49:20 pm by ILoveCats123 »

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #38 on: »
In days past, the learned adjudicator Hugh Cooper used to allow decisions re Notices to Owner which prescribed the date of service.  This EN is clearly flawed: if it had said the date of the notice and something like "the date of service is usually assumed to be two working days according to The Interpretation Act", there would be no criticism. As it stands, however, it is arguable - rather, it will be argued - that this is akin to a procedural impropriety and the council will be faced with a lengthy document on the jurisdiction to entertain a collateral challenge in this very regard.
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #39 on: »
In days past, the learned adjudicator Hugh Cooper used to allow decisions re Notices to Owner which prescribed the date of service.  This EN is clearly flawed: if it had said the date of the notice and something like "the date of service is usually assumed to be two working days according to The Interpretation Act", there would be no criticism. As it stands, however, it is arguable - rather, it will be argued - that this is akin to a procedural impropriety and the council will be faced with a lengthy document on the jurisdiction to entertain a collateral challenge in this very regard.
Fair enough. If only councils would actually read what a PCN must contain they would not have the dreadful reputations they have now

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #40 on: »
5th August at 15.00 hrs there is a hearing if anyone wishes to observe.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2026, 09:02:59 pm by Hippocrates »
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #41 on: »

You can formally challenge your PCN by using an Enforcement Notice form. The vehicle's owner will automatically
receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of the date shown on it.
The form offers you the
chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £160.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN,
please do not write to us again but wait until the Enforcement Notice form arrives.


This is not what the law states at Part II para. 4 (e):



(e)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;


******

The legality of thousands of bus lane fines has been called into question after a motorist overturned one by claiming it had used the wrong wording.
The Standard · standard.co.uk


BTW, it was his son driving not him! Mr Burke subsequently supported this in a later decision in which I assisted.

ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2100649871
Appellant Grace Elizabeth Wheatland
Authority Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames
VRM X653XFX
PCN Details
PCN KT55276825
Contravention date 20 May 2010
Contravention time 08:49:00
Contravention location Eden Street
Penalty amount GBP 120.00
Contravention Being in a bus lane
Referral date -
Decision Date 12 May 2011
Adjudicator Michael Burke
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons The allegation in this case is that the vehicle was in the bus lane during the hours of operation. Miss Wheatland does not dispute this but criticises the quality of the bus lane signage. I have considered very carefully the criticisms she makes but having considered her evidence together with Google Street View I am satisfied that the bus lane signage was clear and adequate and that any respect in which it failed to comply with Traffic Signs, Regulations and General Directions 2002 or Traffic Signs Manual 2008 would come within the de minimis rule as too trifling to be regarded.

In the circumstances Miss Wheatland could have had no complaint had she been required to pay a penalty charge. However, I have also had to consider part of the wording on the face of the PCN.

Miss Wheatland asserts that the PCN is non-compliant in stating that in the event of failure to make representations or a payment 'an Enforcement Notice will be served' rather than 'may be served'. He refers to a PCN cancelled by this Local Authority on similar grounds.

It is an enduring mystery why Local Authorities seem unable simply to copy out the words of the statute or statutory instrument imposing formal requirements. It is not sufficient for the Local Authority to say as here that they have subsequently amended the wording. They have given no good reason for departing from the statutory wording in the first place. However, the fact that the Enforcement Authority depart from the formal wording of a statute or statutory instrument does not necessarily invalidate the document. The question I have to consider is whether the PCN was substantially compliant.

I regard this as a borderline case. Having considered the matter very carefully I do not feel able to say that the wording on the PCN is substantially compliant and accordingly I allow the appeal.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2026, 09:14:56 pm by Hippocrates »
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #42 on: »
I am here to submit reps whenever you are ready

Re: Bus lane PCN Southwark Council
« Reply #43 on: »
I am here to submit reps whenever you are ready

Yes sir.  I will PM you.
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"