3. Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
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Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
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Hi All,
 I hope you are well.
I have received the below from the council. It says about being in a bus lane but according to the location there is no bus lane but a bus stop with worn out signage on tramac.

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The location in Google maps:
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.9227776,-1.47476,3a,75y,3.52h,75.29t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sq3dgXhf6Q3sxPGri_VT9ZQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D14.712660365192619%26panoid%3Dq3dgXhf6Q3sxPGri_VT9ZQ%26yaw%3D3.5183737440745966!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMS4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Please advise.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #1 on: »
Appears to have been restricted to busses only 7am - 7pm Mon - Sat since 2021:

34J - Driving down a bus lane - Derby City Council
derby.gov.uk


There may be other flaws in the PCN, or signage if you can get up to date photos.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #2 on: »
I mean this is some sort of a joke.
Cars are coming from a roundabout.
How the cars supposed to drive on the inside of a roundabout not to cross on that?
It looks like another clever way for the council to make money.
They have money for the cameras but not for the paint.

The road markings are visible in 40%.
The central line is like visible in 15%.
In the past I had a PCN cancelled by an adjudicator due to markings being worn out.

Unfortunately I am not from the area to go there and to take more pictures / risk more tickets.
From their pictures it looks nothing has changed/improved and it's the same what's at Google Maps.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #3 on: »
Please re-instate date of contravention and PCN number.

Here is a more recent GSV (2023)

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps. · maps.app.goo.gl


you presumably passed these blue signs and the legend on the road on leaving the roundabout?

Which way did you enter the roundabout? Are there any advance signs on the route you took?

Please post up the video here, which is the evidence. There may be errors in the camera certification or, as Richard said,  in the small print of the PCN.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #4 on: »
This looks like council's money making machine.

Do you want me to publish the PCN number and the date?

I left the roundabout. I don't remember where I entered the roundabout but does this make any difference to the fact their BUS LANE bit is on the way when leaving a roundabout?
From your Google street view you can see that the driver has to drive towards the island to drive around this or he/she will cross the centre line.
You can also see how bad the paint job is on the one in question comparing to the one on the opposite side of the road.

I don't know how to download this footage. I was able to download it from other websites in the past but their website is designed to make it hard.

Penalty Charge Notices - Derby City Council
Find out how to pay, challenge or appeal a penalty charge notice (PCN) in Derby.
derby.gov.uk
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #5 on: »
Put your PCN number and the webcode and one of the experts here ( @stamfordman ?) should be able to post the video for you.
Quote

I left the roundabout. I don't remember where I entered the roundabout but does this make any difference

If we know your approach to the roundabout we can look on GSV for advance warning signs (if there was one on the route you took).
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks for you help so far.
I think I entered it from the Tennant Street which is the previous exit.
07/10/2024
DR43048134
702QM864
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #7 on: »
There appears to be no advance warning sign on Tennant Street nor any other approach road except Morledge which has this:

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps. · maps.app.goo.gl


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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #8 on: »
Tennat Street looks like being a strange road which is actually just a back entrance to a shopping mall plaza from following it on street view. So it seems unlikely that the OP entered the roundabout from there.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #9 on: »
The PCN is complete pants ! The Representations page refers to the wrong regulations, and also omits two of the statutory grounds for an appeal.

Here are the correct regulations: -
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022
These Regulations make provision entitling persons—who are or may be liable to pay penalty charges in respect of parking contraventions (in and outside Greater London), bus lane contraventions ou...
legislation.gov.uk


Regulation 5 gives the statutory grounds of appeal: -

Quote
(4) The grounds mentioned in paragraph (2)(b)(i) are—

(a)the alleged contravention did not occur;

(b)the recipient—

(i)never was the owner of the vehicle in question,

(ii)had ceased to be its owner before the alleged contravention occurred, or

(iii)became its owner after the alleged contravention occurred;

(c)at the time that the alleged contravention occurred, the vehicle in question was in the control of a person who did not have the consent of the owner;

(d)the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and—

(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement, and

(ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging their liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any relevant road traffic contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement;

(e)the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;

(f)there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority;

(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;


Procedural Impropriety is missing and is defined in "Interpretation of Parts 1 to 5"

Quote
(2) A “procedural impropriety” means a failure by an enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by—

(a)the TMA 2004,

(b)the 2022 General Regulations, or

(c)these Regulations,

in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (2) such a failure includes, in particular, the taking of any step, whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise than—

(a)in accordance with the conditions subject to which, or

(b)at the time or during the period when,

it is authorised or required by the 2022 General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #10 on: »
Hi again All,
   Thank you for looking into it.
What do you think I should do now.
Pay the fine at 50% discount or challenge it?

From my experience in total of 3 cases I believe the adjudicator in two instances ruled it out in my favor but in one case it was ruled out in favor of the council even when my grounds were compelling. The decision surprised some of the PePiPoo pros.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #11 on: »
Councils have to obey the law same as you, and omitting a key piece of legally-mandated information from a PCN is a procedural impropriety and really should get the PCN cancelled at adjudication.  But it's your money.
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on October 25, 2024, 06:06:23 pm
Councils have to obey the law same as you, and omitting a key piece of legally-mandated information from a PCN is a procedural impropriety and really should get the PCN cancelled at adjudication.  But it's your money.
Do you think if I pay it will they fix some pot holes with it?  ;D
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #13 on: »
The website of this council is designed to mislead the user.
On the letter there is no direct link to challenge the PCN but some general help page.
Under 35J page there is a whole list of usual reasons the drivers can miss the restriction but this is just some smoke to confuse the web user.
34J - Driving down a bus lane - Derby City Council
derby.gov.uk


For the people not from the area the option "I was not aware that Corporation Street was a bus lane" makes the most sense
but when you click on it it only convinces you to pay the fine and the link to challenge is not provided.
I don't know how this can be considered legal. I looks more like a gambling app people are deliberately misled or have to go in circles to complete the process.

You have to inspect other options to get the link to challenge the PCN. Not good.
Challenge Entry - Derby City Council
Parking portal
pcn.derby.gov.uk
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Re: Bus Lane - Derby City Council - Corporation Street
« Reply #14 on: »
I just got a response from the council:

Quote
Dear X
The Traffic Management Act 2004 – S78; Traffic Management Act 2004, S82; The
Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging
Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022; The Civil
Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals)
(England) Regulations 2022
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE NUMBER: DRXXXX
DATE OF ISSUE: 07 October 2024
VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER: LCXXXX
LOCATION OF CONTRAVENTION: Corporation Street

I refer to your representations received on 02 November 2024, in respect of the above
Penalty Charge Notice.
Please note that the legislation on the Notice to Owner is correct.
The registered keeper has the right to take their case to the Independent Adjudicator,
but that they are obliged to follow the national appeals process and will need to submit
formal representations with their mitigation to the Council first to be considered if they
wish to appeal the Penalty Charge Notice. However, we cannot consider any mitigation if
the registered keeper fails to provide any.
In view of this, if you have mitigation as to why the vehicle contravened the restriction
that you would like to be considered, then please ensure as the registered keeper of the
vehicle you submit your formal representations as soon as possible.


Alternatively, if you now upon reflection accept that you contravened the restriction, I am
willing to re-offer you the opportunity to make payment of the original, reduced amount of
Ł35.00 to close the case, if payment is received within 21 days from the date of this
response.
Payments can be made in any of the following ways:-
➢ Credit or Debit Card – In person or by telephone on 0345 600 1982
➢ Online At:
https://pcn.derby.gov.uk/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=PAYMENT
Please ensure that you quote the Penalty Charge Number when making payments.
If the information requested or payment is not received within 21 days from the date of
service of this letter, I will have to consider issuing you a formal Notice of Rejection.
Yours sincerely
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