Author Topic: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN  (Read 2161 times)

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Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
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Hi. I have posted this on Pepipoo too, and have had some advice about the location name being incorrect. Apparently also the disregard period is not correct. I would appreciate any help in drafting an appeal.

The PCN, photos and video are here too!

Thank you very much.



Video:



Here are the pages from the PCN




And I was going to write something like this. Although I wonder how to refer to the issue with the disregard period, and I wondered if it's worth quoting another appeal that was allowed for the same issue (incorrect location -

Quote
Hello. Thank you for reviewing my appeal.

The location stated on the penalty charge notice is stated as 'High St Bromley Sth/Police Station'. This location does not exist and therefore the vehicle cannot have been at that location.

I enclose evidence that Bromley Police Station's address is High Street, Bromley, Kent. Which seems to indicate that the box junction in question is actually on the junction of an unnamed access road that leads to Waitrose's Car Park, and High Street.

I cannot find any road in the borough that is called High St Bromley Sth, High Street Bromley South or other variation.

Please see screenshots as evidence.







Here is the details of the other appeal that was allowed in the same location:

Quote
Case reference 2230349433
Appellant Robert Nye
Authority London Borough of Bromley
VRM EX17 DAY
PCN Details
PCN BY96091825
Contravention date 25 Apr 2023
Contravention time 13:08:00
Contravention location High Street Bromley South
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date
Decision Date 22 Aug 2023
Adjudicator Belinda Pearce
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons
The Appellant attended a Personal Appeal Hearing before me today, 22nd July 2023, to explain his contention personally.

1. The Enforcement Authority assert that the said vehicle entered and stopped on a location subject to an operative restriction denoted by yellow cross-hatching, such demarcation indicating a prohibition against a vehicle remaining stationary within the defined area due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

2. The Appellant denies liability for the ensuing Penalty Charge Notice on the basis of the prevailing circumstances and challenges as comprehensively stated in his detailed written representations, which he reiterated at, and supported with photographic capture which he bought to, the Hearing.

3. The Enforcement Authority who assert that the said vehicle was so driven contrary to the operative restriction are obliged to adduce evidence to the requisite standard to substantiate that assertion:-
The evidence upon which the Enforcement Authority rely comprises the certified copy Penalty Charge Notice together with photographic evidence: CCTV footage and still frames taken there-from revealing the said vehicle in situ and the applicable carriageway markings notifying motorists of the prohibition.
It is incumbent upon a motorist to be acquainted with [by reference to The Highway Code], and comply with, such prohibitions.

4.The prohibition, as set out in The Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions 2016 prohibits vehicles (or parts there-of) from becoming stationary or stopping within the cross-hatched area due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
There is no requirement that the vehicle be causing an obstruction.
There is no minimum period since a vehicle is in contravention immediately it is stationary.
There is no minimum portion of a vehicle since any stationary part thereof is subject to contravention.

5. The contemporaneous photographic capture was examined (repeatedly) to evaluate the allegation in conjunction with the Appellant's representations and images.

6. The Appellant raised 6 issues in his Notice of Appeal, some of which were addressed by the Enforcement Authority in its Case Summary, and all of which were discussed at the Hearing. Since this is a matter of 'strict liability' although I have considered each of the Appellant's contentions, for the most-part they cannot impact on my determination.
However I register concern on reading the minutes of the Enforcement Authority's meeting of the Environment and Community Services Policy Development and Scrutiny Committee of Wednesday 9th September 2020, bought to my attention by the Appellant, which suggests revenue impacts on the siting of camera enforcement locations.

7. Whilst the evidence substantiates a contravention, I cannot be satisfied that the contravention as alleged in the Penalty Charge Notice is made out. The Appellant's pertinent point contends that the said vehicle was not at the location stated on the Penalty Charge Notice as such location does not exist; to identify the location the Appellant obtained the address of Bromley Police Station and provided Google Earth aerial images of the location which description corresponds with the Police Station address; namely a junction between an un-named access road and High Street, Bromley, Kent.

8. I therefore consulted the Master London Street Atlas and could find no entry for 'High St Bromley Sth.'

On balance, evidentially I cannot be satisfied that this contravention occurred, accordingly I allow this Appeal.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 03:09:50 pm by cp8759 »

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Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
There are two boxes and they're not that far from each other:



The suggestion that Bromley Police Station is in Kent is without foundation, I know that some people in the outer borough think that they're in the neighboring county, but they're not. In fact Bromley Police station is in the north of the borough, and it's closer to the border with Lewisham than the border with Kent.

Here is a revised draft:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

Firstly the alleged contravention did not occur, because there is no such location as High Street Bromley South, Bromley Police Station is located on High Street Bromley, but that is not the location of the alleged contravention in any event.

The location shown in the video is the junction between High Street and the unnamed access road to the Waitrose supermarket car park, which is not the location stated on the penalty charge notice.

Furthermore, the penalty charge notice is defective in any event. This is because the penalty charge wrongly states that the authority may disregard representations made later than 28 days from the date of the notice, rather than 28 days from the date of service of the notice. The authority is not permitted to cut short the period for making representations in this way.

In light of the above the penalty charge notice must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
Just to check my understanding - the OP's video is from the red circled box in the aerial photo.  The case sited is the blue one.

The same logic applies re phantom location, but unless I mistaken (which I may be) I think your draft implies it's the other way round.

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
The location shown in the video is the one circled in blue, you can tell from the presence of the zig-zag markings.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
What happened with this?

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
Hi - I just had a reply, rejecting my appeal on the grounds of incorrect location and the incorrect disregard period statement.

Now, I was quite happy to pay but I am now cross that they just ignore the fact that they got some information wrong. I feel that if they have the power to issue penalty charges then they should apply consistent rules and ensure they are also adhering to the requirements.




Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
You've chopped off the date of the Notice?

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
Sorry - it's 22nd Dec 2023

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
That NOR is a load of bolleaux.  @ cp: are we going to draw straws as to who is going to represent?  ;)
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #9 on: »
That NOR is a load of bolleaux.  @ cp: are we going to draw straws as to who is going to represent?  ;)

Hi - thanks for the reply, what does represent mean?

Is my next stage the adjudicator? And if that fails I have to pay the full £130?

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #10 on: »
Tribunal is the next stage. If you lose, yes £130;  however, we believe you should have every chance to win.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #11 on: »
Thanks - what do I need to do for a tribunal, and how do I prepare?

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #12 on: »
1. Go online using the code to register the appeal
2. Choose: contravention did not occur
3. I rely upon my formal representations and will make full submissions upon receipt of the council’s evidence pack
4. Choose personal hearing after 11.00 a.m.*
5. Communication by e mail

*If I am representing you as I go in person.  You can attend by phone. My tactics are that I like to join in the game later so authorisation can be given at such time.  Others do it differently but it doesn't really matter.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 12:20:26 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #13 on: »
That NOR is a load of bolleaux.  @ cp: are we going to draw straws as to who is going to represent?  ;)
@Hippocrates I don't mind if you want to take this one, I'm struggling with capacity at the moment. I'm supposedly on holiday but I seem to have 17 hearings to prepare for next week, including 8 hearings the first day the tribunal reopens on the 2nd.

@Sudokuqueen please re-post the PCN using imgur.com instead of https://imgbb.com/ as the latter deletes all the images after a few days.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Bromley, 31J Box Junction PCN
« Reply #14 on: »
Thanks cp.  Might catch up with you on the 2nd by way of listening in!  I have one at midday.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r