3. Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
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Spectre77

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Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« on: June 23, 2023, 07:25:34 pm »
Hi everyone!
I have recently received a PCN from TfL for entering box junction. I was thinking to pay it and move on but today, I was doing the same commute and the same thing happened so probably will get another PCN.
First PCN is GX07852901 and reg number is VF16 HWB (this PCN is not the one with the dashcamp clip attached-dashcam clip is for the second PCN which I am expecting to receive in the next 1-2 weeks).
This is what happened (both times):
Location: Bath Road https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4751137,-0....i8192?entry=ttu

I need to do a slight right in order to get home. On a typical day, this is not a problem. However, when there is major congestion, it's nearly impossible to predict when there will be a spot for a car to enter after the box junction. Although the set of lights allows me to enter the junction, the cars from the left always jump in first so they fill in my space. Please see the clip attached to get an idea about the difficulty. Thus, I would have two options: 1. to drive and hope that I will be allowed to enter without blocking the junction and 2. to wait a very long time and block the traffic until there is 100% certainty that there is enough space.
Is there any way I could appeal these? Shouldn't the box junction also be extended for the cars coming from the left lane so they don't jump in and block the other drivers? Please note that I've been doing this journey for 2 years and never got a PCN but for some reason, traffic has been ridiculous over the last week and this causes a lot of congestion in that area.
Video clip: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14piAEgEfKE...iew?usp=sharing

Please let me know your thoughts
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cp8759

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2023, 12:03:45 pm »
Your google drive link is broken, please re-post it.

Also, have you got the video from TFL? If not, call them up and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the PCN on hold while you wait.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

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Spectre77

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2023, 12:53:29 pm »
Thanks! I have called them, waiting for DVD. Please try this link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14piAEgEfKE7q-k482zyY80Tl54l7tbHS/view?usp=sharing
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cp8759

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2023, 02:35:55 pm »
The link works but it just shows an open and shut contravention. We'll have to wait for TFL's video to give a definitive view.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Spectre77

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2023, 03:25:45 pm »
Thank you! In the meantime, what are your thoughts of that box junction and the fact that is really hard to do a right when vehicles from the left jump in? Is the box junction following the regulations?
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cp8759

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2023, 04:35:31 pm »
Quote from: Spectre77 on June 24, 2023, 03:25:45 pm
Thank you! In the meantime, what are your thoughts of that box junction and the fact that is really hard to do a right when vehicles from the left jump in? Is the box junction following the regulations?
The box might be really difficult to navigate, but that is not a legal defence, it is just mitigation. As the tribunal cannot consider mitigation, it's not really that helpful I'm afraid. Realistically you have to assume that TFL will refuse to accept any mitigation and only a statutory ground of appeal that can be pursued at the tribunal will work.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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John U.K.

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2023, 04:57:53 pm »
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Spectre77

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2023, 08:11:38 pm »
thanks, I copied the text from pepipoo and I believe the links did not work accordingly
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cp8759

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2023, 11:16:14 am »
Box might be tricky but it does appear to comply with the regulations.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Spectre77

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2023, 12:12:45 am »
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Pastmybest

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2023, 09:07:26 am »
As per the pepipoo thread, i think the right turn exemption has a fair chance of sucsess
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cp8759

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Re: Bath road Box Junction impossible to time when to enter
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2023, 11:37:39 am »
Quote from: Pastmybest on July 12, 2023, 09:07:26 am
As per the pepipoo thread, i think the right turn exemption has a fair chance of sucsess
I think it's the only arguable point and the only chance of success, but it would be somewhat of a gamble IMO.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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