Author Topic: Barnet Council - PCN 38L Failing to comply with a sign indicating that vehiculartraffic must pass to the specified side  (Read 288 times)

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Hippocrates

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Actually, there is something else on the road on the right behind the car. Did your son go ahead or turn left?

I think you should make it quite clear that your son would have caused an accident and even greater problems for the Police. And possibly make it clear that you were not the driver but are the keeper.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2024, 10:28:35 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Pramit

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He went ahead

Do you know what the timescales are for the challenge? And if do challenge does that mean I would have to pay the higher amount if my challenge is denied?

mrmustard

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    • Mr Mustard
You have to challenge within 28 days of receipt of the PCN.

The council have no legal time limit for reply but most adjudicators would not cancel if a response is late until it is 3 to 6 months after the representation.

Barnet usually respond in 14-21 days but can take longer.
I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

Pramit

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Thank you for that.

And if I do challenge does that mean I would have to pay the higher amount if my challenge is denied?

mrmustard

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    • Mr Mustard
According to the law, yes, but many councils, usually including Barnet reoffer the discount even though they don't have to for moving traffic because they know people worry about the money.

I'm more interested in fighting to the end if I think you have a good case, and yours is better than 50/50 in my opinion, than making representations which councils will almost invariably reject and then watching the motorist's knees buckle and pay up.



I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

Hippocrates

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I would go with mrmustard. I would add the object on the road. BTW, it is not a challenge but a formal representation.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Pramit

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 Thank you both for your advice and comments

stamfordman

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Post a draft representation here first.

Hippocrates

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@Pramit My take is that the Police must surely have directed traffic tom pass on the right? Possibly ask them.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Pramit

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I am planning on sending the following letter to Barnet. Any comments or suggestions would be most welcome:

Subject: Appeal of Penalty Charge Notice [PCN Number]

Dear Barnet Council,

I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) [PCN Number], issued on [date] at [location]. I am the keeper of the car, and my son was driving the car at the time.

As shown in the image evidence provided, a vehicle was stopped near the width restriction, obstructing the left-turn lane. Police officers were actively managing the situation at the time, and several vehicles, including mine, were forced to carefully navigate around the traffic island to avoid the obstruction.

Given that the stopped vehicle blocked the route, there was liquid on the road surface, which looked like oil, the car had it's hazard lights on, and in my judgement a high likelihood of other additional road hazards, such as mirror shards or other debris, it would not have been safe to go through the width restriction. Therefore, my son proceeded cautiously and followed the actions of other drivers who also diverted to the opposite side of the traffic island to avoid any potential danger. You will note that the traffic approaching from Alexandra Grove were stopping at the "Give Way" lines at the junction, the on coming traffic on Nether Street would also need to slow down as they had to go through the width restriction and finally the traffic from Argyle Road were also stopping at the "Give Way" lines.

The police presence including a police car on at the scene indicates that this was an unusual circumstance and were managing the traffic situation, and I believe my actions were reasonable and necessary to ensure safe passage. I acted with due care and caution, and in light of these exceptional circumstances, I respectfully request that this PCN be cancelled.

Thank you for considering my appeal.

Kind regards,
[Your Name]

stamfordman

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You need to sort out the driver and I as you're mixing them up in the draft.

Pramit

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Thank you. Amended to read more clearly.

Subject: Appeal of Penalty Charge Notice [PCN Number]

Dear Barnet Council,

I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) [PCN Number], issued on [date] at [location]. I am the keeper of the car, and my son was driving the car at the time.

As shown in the image evidence provided, a vehicle was stopped near the width restriction, obstructing the left-turn lane. Police officers were actively managing the situation at the time, and several drivers, including my son, were forced to carefully navigate around the traffic island to avoid the obstruction.

Given that the stopped vehicle blocked the route, there was liquid on the road surface, which looked like oil, the car had it's hazard lights on, and in my son's judgement a high likelihood of other additional road hazards, such as mirror shards or other debris, it would not have been safe to go through the width restriction. Therefore, my son proceeded cautiously and followed the actions of other drivers who also diverted to the opposite side of the traffic island to avoid any potential danger. You will note that the traffic approaching from Alexandra Grove were stopping at the "Give Way" lines at the junction, the on coming traffic on Nether Street would also need to slow down as they had to go through the width restriction and finally the traffic from Argyle Road were also stopping at the "Give Way" lines.

The police presence including a police car on at the scene indicates that this was an unusual circumstance and were managing the traffic situation, and I believe my son's actions were reasonable and necessary to ensure safe passage. My son acted with due care and caution, and in light of these exceptional circumstances, I respectfully request that this PCN be cancelled.

Thank you for considering my appeal.

Kind regards,
[Your Name]
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stamfordman

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Pramit

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Thank you. I have submitted a challenge. Fingers crossed it is accepted!

Hippocrates

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Thank you. I have submitted a challenge. Fingers crossed it is accepted!
Good. If it isn't, I am sure mr mustard will help you!
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ