Author Topic: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street  (Read 3732 times)

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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #45 on: »
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.

If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.

It's the law.
Really that's a point for the Adjudicator, assuming the case ever gets to the Adjudicator. Which seems unlikely as the PCN was fully paid and should have been closed.

Right now the issue is how to word the Out of Time application to ensure that it gets accepted, and no review will be required. So that the OP can recover the £464 already paid to the bailiff.

The Witness Statement has a box to tick to the effect that payment was made, when, how, to whom. The court officer won't be interested in the lawfulness or otherwise of the Penalty Charge, only whether the OP has a valid reason for being late with the Witness Statement. And whether the payment was made within the 28 day relevant period or not.

The OP is late because he believed his in-time payment had closed the case. He did not receive any Charge Certificate or an Order for Recovery that would have informed him that the matter was not closed. And hence did not know that a Witness Statement was required.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2024, 08:29:22 am by Enceladus »

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #46 on: »
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.

If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.

It's the law.
Really that's a point for the Adjudicator, assuming the case ever gets to the Adjudicator. Which seems unlikely as the PCN was fully paid and should have been closed.

Right now the issue is how to word the Out of Time application to ensure that it gets accepted, and no review will be required. So that the OP can recover the £464 already paid to the bailiff.

The Witness Statement has a box to tick to the effect that payment was made, when, how, to whom. The court officer won't be interested in the lawfulness or otherwise of the Penalty Charge, only whether the OP has a valid reason for being late with the Witness Statement. And whether the payment was made within the 28 day relevant period or not.

The OP is late because he believed his in-time payment had closed the case. He did not receive any Charge Certificate or an Order for Recovery that would have informed him that the matter was not closed. And hence did not know that a Witness Statement was required.

Hello,

Where do I go from here. Do I have to fill out the ‘Out of Time’ document & ‘Witness statement’

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #47 on: »
I suggest you do both i.e. submit an OOT and write to the council.

I have prepared a draft for comment.


Head of Parking Services
Swansea *****
******

PCN - ************

I refer to the above and the applicable PCN enforcement timetable which you recently provided. I stress this is your evidence.

My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now matched by my annoyance that a blatantly unlawful demand is being made by the council, which situation should have been clear to anyone who cared to exercise proper oversight of the process. Your timeline is attached from which I have drawn the following:

1. An entry to the effect that a NTO was dated and posted 25 Oct.
2. An entry to the effect that another NTO was produced, dated and posted on 26 Oct.
3. An entry to the effect that a CC was produced dated and posted on 27 Nov.
4. An entry showing payment of £70 received 27Nov.
5. An entry showing a CC posted 27th Nov. which cited and relied upon the NTO issued 26 Oct. which on the basis of the council's evidence was an unlawful notice.
6. A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. provided in the council's evidence.

From the above the following are apparent:
a. Unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC (posted on 27 Nov.) was served;
c. The council acted unlawfully when they refused payment of the extant, unsurcharged, penalty on 27 Nov.
d. Pursuing the owner on the basis of an unlawful NTO and CC.

I have paid the Enforcement Agent's unlawful demand only in order to prevent my car being removed and I shall now submit an Out of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Given the council's actions to date, I anticipate that I shall be successful and that the council would not object to my application. However, given the above the authority might consider it prudent to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery now rather than have to refer the matter to the adjudicator.

In this respect, having been apprised of your actions should the council object to my submission and should this be refused then I would refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, should it be necessary, the Ombudsman because such an action could only be seen as a failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and reasonably.


I have copied this letter to your Enforcement Agents for information.

YF

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #48 on: »
I would add an item between 3 & 4. Or perhaps put it at 7.

"A copy of a receipt, issued by the Council, for payment of £70 dated the 26 Nov".

The OP can't be held responsible for delays in applying payments to the PCN account. The charge was paid on the 26th. The OP has told us that his bank statement also says the 26th.

The Council only became entitled to issue a Charge Certificate on the 27th Nov, if they believe the payment was late. They should have ensured that any payments already made were applied before they did so. The CC as issued, but not received, says £105.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2024, 07:36:42 pm by Enceladus »

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #49 on: »
You may revise the wording of the communication to ensure it can be used as evidence if the council does not cooperate and you need to present this letter to the Ombudsman or make a claim for a breach.




Dear Parking Services

I refer to the above matter and the applicable PCN enforcement timetable you recently provided. I emphasise that this is your evidence.

My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now compounded by my annoyance at the council's blatantly unlawful demand, which should have been evident with proper oversight. Your timeline is attached, from which I have concluded the following:

An entry indicates that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was dated and posted on 25 Oct.
Another entry shows a second NTO was produced, dated, and posted on 26 Oct.
An entry states a Charge Certificate (CC) was produced, dated, and posted on 27 Nov.
An entry shows payment of £70 received on 27 Nov.
An entry shows a CC posted on 27 Nov., citing and relying upon the NTO issued on 26 Oct., which, based on the council's evidence, was an unlawful notice.
A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. is provided in the council's evidence.
A copy of a receipt issued by the Council for payment of £70 dated 26 November 2023.

The following points are evident from the above:

a. The unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC (posted on 27 Nov.) was served.
c. The council acted unlawfully by refusing payment of the extant, unsurcharged penalty on 27 Nov.
d and pursuing the owner based on an unlawful NTO and CC.

The Enforcement Agent has taken an unlawful money transfer of £514 under the pain of removing my car. I will now file an Out of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

Given the council's actions to date, I expect a successful outcome and anticipate that the council will not object to my application. However, considering the above, it would be in the authority's best interest to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery now rather than referring the matter to the adjudicator.

In this context, having been made aware of your actions, should the council object to my submission and it be refused, I will refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, if necessary, the Ombudsman. Such action could only be seen as a failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and reasonably.
My bank details for the return of the money are as follows [provide bank details here]. Once the money is returned, I will consider the matter solved.

I have copied your enforcement agent for their information.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #50 on: »
You may revise the wording of the communication to ensure it can be used as evidence if the council does not cooperate and you need to present this letter to the Ombudsman or make a claim for a breach.




Dear Parking Services

I refer to the above matter and the applicable PCN enforcement timetable you recently provided. I emphasise that this is your evidence.

My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now compounded by my annoyance at the council's blatantly unlawful demand, which should have been evident with proper oversight. Your timeline is attached, from which I have concluded the following:

An entry indicates that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was dated and posted on 25 Oct.
Another entry shows a second NTO was produced, dated, and posted on 26 Oct.
An entry states a Charge Certificate (CC) was produced, dated, and posted on 27 Nov.
An entry shows payment of £70 received on 27 Nov.
An entry shows a CC posted on 27 Nov., citing and relying upon the NTO issued on 26 Oct., which, based on the council's evidence, was an unlawful notice.
A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. is provided in the council's evidence.
A copy of a receipt issued by the Council for payment of £70 dated 26 November 2023.

The following points are evident from the above:

a. The unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC (posted on 27 Nov.) was served.
c. The council acted unlawfully by refusing payment of the extant, unsurcharged penalty on 27 Nov.
d and pursuing the owner based on an unlawful NTO and CC.

The Enforcement Agent has taken an unlawful money transfer of £514 under the pain of removing my car. I will now file an Out of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

Given the council's actions to date, I expect a successful outcome and anticipate that the council will not object to my application. However, considering the above, it would be in the authority's best interest to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery now rather than referring the matter to the adjudicator.

In this context, having been made aware of your actions, should the council object to my submission and it be refused, I will refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, if necessary, the Ombudsman. Such action could only be seen as a failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and reasonably.
My bank details for the return of the money are as follows [provide bank details here]. Once the money is returned, I will consider the matter solved.

I have copied your enforcement agent for their information.

Hello,

Am I sending an email to Swansea Council & sending the ‘OOT’ & ‘Witness Statement’ to the TEC

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #51 on: »
OP, it's not really 'either' 'or'

You have paid the debt and this closes procedural matters unless you re-open them by submitting an OOT. There is no set time for this.

So, you could write to the authority and give them, say, 7 days in which to confirm that the sums paid to the enforcement agents will be refunded in full failing which you would submit an OOT. TEC's normal practice is to accept an OOT unless the authority object.

I see 3 scenarios:

1. They realise their error and refund the debt.
2. They continue to act as if they were judges in their own cause and do not comply and object to your OOT, which would probably be refused;
3. They do nothing.

1. They save themselves embarrassment which would arise with an adjudication hearing.
2. You receive their objection and raise the matter through the council's complaints procedure. IMO, an objection in light of the irrefutable facts puts them in the realm of failure to comply with their public law duty to act fairly and has nothing to do with enforcement of road traffic contraventions.
3. TEC approve your OOT at which point the authority must refer the matter to the adjudicator and any hearing would IMO carpet them for abusing their power.

My draft would need amending depending on which route you choose to take, I leave this to you.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #52 on: »
I'd pursue both routes. The longer the delay with submitting the OOT, as that is the procedure the law provides for the circumstances, the more chance there is that the Council will claim that the PCN has been closed by the OP.

It's always best with Councils and PCNs to follow the defined procedures.

It's true that the Council might well oppose your OOT. However the processing of your OOT at the TEC is liable to take at least two and as much as eight weeks. Sending the complaint to the Council should be processed faster than that.

The wording on the OOT application needs to be optimised.

Assuming the OOT is granted then the Order for Recovery would be revoked and the Charge Cert cancelled. Since the PCN itself has been paid the matter should be closed. I'm not sure that the case would be referred to the Adjudicator. Only perhaps if the Council continue to claim that payment was late.


Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #53 on: »
However, slightest possibility there is a street 10 mins away from my address which ends in ‘Street’ and my address ends in ‘Road’. Both address have same name and same 4 starting post codes ‘**11’

My house has received postage from similar street name before so it’s not an impossible scenario.
Have you got any evidence of this, such as misdelivered letters for the other address? Have you ever made a complaint to Royal Mail about this?

I'm Neil's colleague who was meant to look at this a few evenings ago, unfortunately I've only just got to this. What strikes me here is that the key reason why the various statutory notices have gone missing has not been established, and the all the documents were posted to the same exact address as given on the V5C, then an OOT is more likely than not to be rejected. You can of course hope that the council simply doesn't object, but if they do then you'd be in a spot of bother as you'd have to risk more money to request a review by a district judge.

TLDR: The fact that the council is very, very wrong does not mean they won't successfully object to the OOT.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #54 on: »
OP, it's not really 'either' 'or'

You have paid the debt and this closes procedural matters unless you re-open them by submitting an OOT. There is no set time for this.

So, you could write to the authority and give them, say, 7 days in which to confirm that the sums paid to the enforcement agents will be refunded in full failing which you would submit an OOT. TEC's normal practice is to accept an OOT unless the authority object.

I see 3 scenarios:

1. They realise their error and refund the debt.
2. They continue to act as if they were judges in their own cause and do not comply and object to your OOT, which would probably be refused;
3. They do nothing.

1. They save themselves embarrassment which would arise with an adjudication hearing.
2. You receive their objection and raise the matter through the council's complaints procedure. IMO, an objection in light of the irrefutable facts puts them in the realm of failure to comply with their public law duty to act fairly and has nothing to do with enforcement of road traffic contraventions.
3. TEC approve your OOT at which point the authority must refer the matter to the adjudicator and any hearing would IMO carpet them for abusing their power.

My draft would need amending depending on which route you choose to take, I leave this to you.

Hello,

I have contact swansea council for an email address for their parking services depart as I can't find one online. I will contact them and then if that fails fill out an OOT

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #55 on: »
Hello,

Swansea council have sent me the following:

‘Good afternoon
 
Thank you for your email.
 
We have reviewed your case and can confirm the following:
 
A Notice to Owner was sent for printing and posting on 25/10/2023 however, due to an internal issue it appears that the documentation failed to print. For this reason, the Notice to Owner was requeued and subsequently printed and posted on 26/10/2023 to the address provided to us by the DVLA as being that of the registered keeper, which was still within the legal timescales to serve a Notice to Owner.
 
The Notice to Owner documentation advised that a payment of £70.00 was outstanding to be paid within 28 days of the date the Notice was deemed served, which in this case was no later than 25/11/2023. The Notice also advised that failure to make payment before the end of the 28 days period would result in the penalty increasing by 50% taking the total to £105.00. 
 
Due to a payment of £70.00 not being received until 26/11/2024 which was after the 28 day period, the case progressed as an underpayment and we issued a Charge Certificate requesting the outstanding balance of £35.00 (£105.00 minus £70.00 received).
 
As no further payment or correspondence was received in response to the Charge Certificate, the case continued to progress and we issued an Order for Recovery (TE3 TE9) on 20/12/2023 which incurred further charges.
 
Due to no payment or completion of the TE3 and TE9 being made within the statutory timescales the case was registered for a warrant of control and was subsequently passed to Andrew James Enforcement on 09/02/2024 to recover the outstanding debt plus Enforcement Fees.
 
Having reviewed your case in full Swansea Council are satisfied that no procedural impropriety has occurred and that the case has progressed correctly. For this reason, we regret that we will be unable to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery or recall the case from the Enforcement Agent and issue any refunds of payments made.
 
Your only options at this late stage are to either, lodge an Out Of Time Witness Statement with the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) for your case to be reviewed by a Court Officer if one of the four options on the witness statement apply to your case or your case will remain closed as full payment has now been received by the Agent.
 
Here are the four options you could choose from:
 
*  I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice
*  I appealed against the Local Authority’s decision to reject my representation, within 28 days of service of the rejection notice, but have had no response.
*  I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice.
*  The Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full.
 
To request the relevant documentation to lodge an Out of Time Witness Statement you would be required to contact TEC on 0300 123 1059 (select option 6) or download the relevant forms (TE7 & TE9) online at www.gov.uk (see direct links below)
 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te9-witness-statement-unpaid-penalty-charge-parking
 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te7-application-to-file-a-statement-out-of-time-extension-of-time-parking
 
The completed forms must be returned to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at the address they provide or via email to tec@justice.gov.uk .
 
Where possible we would request that you please provide supporting documentary evidence with your statement.
 
Once we are in receipt of notification from TEC that an Out Of Time Witness Statement has been lodged on this case, we will place the case on hold until a decision has been made regarding this matter.
 
Please be advised, should no action be taken, the case will remain active with the Enforcement Agent and further charges may be incurred.
 
Cofion/Regards’

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #56 on: »
So the key point is what did their system ask for when you made payment ? Their not printing the NtO on their first attempt hints at system problems.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #57 on: »
Great news.

Write back.

Thank them for replying so quickly and clarifying that a NTO was posted on THURSDAY 26 October 2023. However, you can see that the error made by the authority in 2023 has been repeated in their last reply with their inability to calculate 28-day periods as follows:

Date of posting: Thursday 26 Oct.
Date deemed served: Monday 30th October.
Latest date of the 28-day period beginning on date of service: Sun. 26th Nov. and not 25 Nov. as stated by the council.

You would ask that the authority consider their position in this matter and accept that payment of £70 (which the council acknowledge was made on 26 Nov.) discharges the owner's legal obligation in this matter.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2024, 03:33:06 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #58 on: »
Great news.

Write back.

Thank them for replying so quickly and clarifying that a NTO was posted on THURSDAY 26 October 2023. However, you can see that the error made by the authority in 2023 has been repeated in their last reply with their inability to calculate 28-day periods as follows:

Date of posting: Thursday 26 Oct.
Date deemed served: Monday 30th October.
Latest date of the 28-day period beginning on date of service: Sun. 26th Nov. and not 25 Nov. as stated by the council.

You would ask that the authority consider their position in this matter and accept that payment of £70 (which the council acknowledge was made on 26 Nov.) discharges the owner's legal obligation in this matter.

Hello,

So I would I be correct in saying that they have confirmed that the document was posted on 26th and not 25th therefore giving me a 28 day period of 27th November due to the working day falling on the Monday.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #59 on: »
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application. If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded. Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might even get a costs order.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order