Author Topic: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street  (Read 3665 times)

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Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
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I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN. I have the receipt of my payment and have received no other letters or any communication from the council since. Then in July this month I had an enforcement officer turn up to my house with a warrant of control for £354.

I emailed the agency straight away and didn’t get a response for 6 days. I’ve asked them for the full transcript of communication they’ve had between Swansea council to find out how it’s got to this point. They showed me a document which I have attached in the link below with a warrant of control that was dated in February.

Between November and February where it got raised to the traffic enforcement centre I received zero communication from either the TEC & the council. Then when it’s been passed onto the enforcement agency I have received zero communication from them until last week where they turned up at my house.

If anyone could please assist me with this it, I would greatly appreciated.

Images - https://imgur.com/a/SSfP0ip

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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #1 on: »
I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN.

Then in July this month I had an enforcement officer turn up to my house with a warrant of control for £354.

 Between November and February where it got raised to the traffic enforcement centre I received zero communication from either the TEC & the council. Then when it’s been passed onto the enforcement agency I have received zero communication from them until last week where they turned up at my house.


It would appear that the deadline for making the payment of £70 was on 25th November 2023 and that you made payment one day late on 26th November 2023.

The PCN was placed on your vehicle and that following the issue, you state that you did not receive any further communication until an enforcement agent visited your parents address. I am assuming that their registered was where your vehicle was registered to? Is this correct?
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #2 on: »
Hello.

I live at the address my car is registered at. I was on holiday so I worded it they arrived at my parents house. But there has been no letters since I’ve paid the PCN

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #3 on: »
@RhysGrif what's the registered address on the V5C?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #4 on: »
@cp8759  the registered address is where I live. All information on my log book is correct

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #5 on: »
UPDATE: Bailiffs turned up to my house at 06:20 for a sum of £454 or they’d clamp my car. Can anyone please assist me

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #6 on: »
The deadline to pay would be dependent on the date of the letter rejecting your informal representations against the PCN. That's the on-street PCN that you posted the link for.

Please post up the rejection letter. Just redact your name and address.

If this PCN wasn't fully paid then you should have a received a Notice to Owner. You could have submitted formal representations against this. But you haven't posted up an NTO. Did you ever receive an NTO? Or a subsequent Charge Certificate?

To enforce, the bailiff would have to have served a Notice of Enforcement detailing how much was owed plus a £75 fee. And providing seven clear days to pay. Did you ever receive a Notice of Enforcement?

You account has hallmarks of a case where the Registered Keeper's address held by the DVLA is incorrect or out of date. Check the V5c for your car. Is the name and address 100% correct? And is it the address where you currently live at? Please don't just assume. Get the document out and check.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 01:33:18 pm by Enceladus »

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #7 on: »
@Enceladus hello,  I have checked my V5 and all the information is correct. I have shown a receipt of my £70 payment to Swansea council and since that date I have received not a single letter including the ‘NTO’ from the council.

As you can see from my photos it was then taken to the TEC in February which even then I had received no letters from either the council or the TEC.

The bailiffs turned up with ‘Warrant of Control’ for a sum of £354 but I’ve been trying to contact them as there was no explanation of why I’ve received this charge on the paper. Then this morning they turned up at my door and clamped my car demanding £454.

On the images you can see they attached a document which i presume the original charge was for a late payment and a Fee of £44. I never received a letter to pay this sum and I’m guessing it has escalated to this now.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #8 on: »
I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN.

Then in July this month I had an enforcement officer turn up to my house with a warrant of control for £354.

 Between November and February where it got raised to the traffic enforcement centre I received zero communication from either the TEC & the council. Then when it’s been passed onto the enforcement agency I have received zero communication from them until last week where they turned up at my house.


It would appear that the deadline for making the payment of £70 was on 25th November 2023 and that you made payment one day late on 26th November 2023.

The PCN was placed on your vehicle and that following the issue, you state that you did not receive any further communication until an enforcement agent visited your parents address. I am assuming that their registered was where your vehicle was registered to? Is this correct?

Hello.

I live at the address my car is registered at. I was on holiday so I worded it they arrived at my parents house. But there has been no letters since I’ve paid the PCN

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #9 on: »
@RhysGrif I suggest you give us the PCN number and number plate and also post up what documents you do have.

You may have to make a subject access request to find out what's gone wrong.

Have you had any other problems receiving post? To go from roadside PCN to bailiffs there are an awful lot of letters that all happened to get lost in the post, so it would be odd if only letters related to the PCN had gone missing.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #10 on: »
@Enceladus hello,  I have checked my V5 and all the information is correct. I have shown a receipt of my £70 payment to Swansea council and since that date I have received not a single letter including the ‘NTO’ from the council.

As you can see from my photos it was then taken to the TEC in February which even then I had received no letters from either the council or the TEC.

The bailiffs turned up with ‘Warrant of Control’ for a sum of £354 but I’ve been trying to contact them as there was no explanation of why I’ve received this charge on the paper. Then this morning they turned up at my door and clamped my car demanding £454.

On the images you can see they attached a document which i presume the original charge was for a late payment and a Fee of £44. I never received a letter to pay this sum and I’m guessing it has escalated to this now.
£454? Do you mean £464?

The breakdown of the £464 is:
£35 = PCN surcharge - Did you receive a Charge Certificate?
£9 = TEC registration - Did you receive an Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge?
£75 = Compliance Stage Fee - Did you receive a Notice of Enforcement ex Bailiff?
£235 = Enforcement Stage Fee Bailiff - Bailiff visit to address of Registered Keeper.
£110 = Sale Stage Fee - Car clamped
£464 = Total

I suggest that right now you have no choice but to pay the £464 immediately, to release your car and to prevent the bailiff from towing it away.

You'll also need to, if it's even possible, submit an Out of Time application & Witness Statement to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC). This will need to be carefully worded to maximise your chances of getting it accepted as very likely Swansea will object.

At the moment it's unclear what grounds you might be able to use on a WS & OOT. In particular did you receive a Notice to Owner prior to the 26th November 2023? The Swansea website implies it was sent.

You've mentioned an appeal. I assume you mean that you submitted representations to Swansea? When exactly and please post up the response.

You mention something left by the bailiff at you parent's house. Please post up that document.

You've mentioned the TEC? What's happened there? Did you submit something to the TEC? When and what exactly?

You can still submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time even if you pay the bailiff. And if successful you should get your money back. But you need to get on with it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 04:55:24 am by Enceladus »

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #11 on: »
Yeah, you're missing a lot of paperwork here. That makes it hard to give you good advice, because timing is crucial here.

If you don't pay a Penalty Charge Notice on time, they send you a letter called a Charge Certificate that increases the amount you owe by 50%.

You say that you paid them the £70 that was due. The council are saying it had gone up by that point, and you actually owed £105.

If you pay less than the amount that's due, the council are allowed to keep it as part-payment and chase you for the rest.

They registered a debt of £44 against you. That's the £35 they're saying you still owe, plus the £9 court registration fee.

The bailiffs got involved, and sent you a letter. That adds £75 onto the amount owed. That almost triples it, taking the total to £119.

The bailiffs had to come knocking on your door. That adds £235 in enforcement costs to the amount owed, tripling it again and taking it to £354.

If they visit you again and actually take steps to remove goods (your car), it will add another £110 on, taking you to £464.

They're saying that this is justified, because you missed the deadline to pay £70 by one day. We can't tell you if they're right or wrong, because we'd need to know the date of service on the Notice to Owner and the Charge Certificate - two pieces of paperwork that you don't have.

In fact, you seem to be missing a lot of paperwork. In addition to the Notice to Owner and Charge Certificate from the council, you should have an Order for Recovery from a court in Northampton and a Notice of Enforcement from the bailiffs as well. Sometimes post goes wrong and people don't receive one of these letters. But you're missing all of them.

You say your V5C is up-to-date and has the correct address, but when did you update it? The V5C should have a date of issue on the front page. Did you by any chance update it after September last year?

You should stop having back-and-forth emails with the bailiffs. They won't back down and it won't delay them from coming to visit you again. They have been instructed to collect a debt on behalf of a council, and they won't stop until they either get the money, or the council calls them off. Also, they don't need to give you any proof. Penalty Charge Notices are dealt with by a special court in Northampton. Unless you fill out a certain form and post it back by a certain deadline, the court automatically sides with the council and gives them permission to send bailiffs after you. This has already happened to you. The bailiffs have a warrant dated February 2024.

If I were you, I would phone the council. Act confused (but polite). Say you've paid it in full but you're still receiving demands. It's a gamble, it might not work. But you might get through to a nice person who's in a good mood that day and decides paying £70 a day late is good enough and closes the case, calling off the bailiffs. If that doesn't work, ask them to send you copies of the paperwork. You really need the dates for the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate and Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations (if it exists). The dates on these are crucial in determining whether you owed £70 or £105 at the time in question. They might be able to generate dated PDF copies from their computer system and email them to you. You might have to put in a GDPR Subject Access Request to find out.

Here's the thing - even if it turns out the council were wrong to send bailiffs after you for the extra £35, there's not a lot you can do about it. You'd have to ask the court in Northampton for permission to file your paperwork four months after the deadline. There is a form for that, but it's pretty hard to get it accepted and you only get one shot at it.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #12 on: »
@Enceladus hello,  I have checked my V5 and all the information is correct. I have shown a receipt of my £70 payment to Swansea council and since that date I have received not a single letter including the ‘NTO’ from the council.

As you can see from my photos it was then taken to the TEC in February which even then I had received no letters from either the council or the TEC.

The bailiffs turned up with ‘Warrant of Control’ for a sum of £354 but I’ve been trying to contact them as there was no explanation of why I’ve received this charge on the paper. Then this morning they turned up at my door and clamped my car demanding £454.

On the images you can see they attached a document which i presume the original charge was for a late payment and a Fee of £44. I never received a letter to pay this sum and I’m guessing it has escalated to this now.
£454? Do you mean £464?

The breakdown of the £464 is:
£35 = PCN surcharge - Did you receive a Charge Certificate?
£9 = TEC registration - Did you receive an Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge?
£75 = Compliance Stage Fee - Did you receive a Notice of Enforcement ex Bailiff?
£235 = Enforcement Stage Fee Bailiff - Bailiff visit to address of Registered Keeper.
£110 = Sale Stage Fee - Car clamped
£464 = Total

I suggest that right now you have no choice but to pay the £464 immediately, to release your car and to prevent the bailiff from towing it away.

You'll also need to, if it's even possible, submit an Out of Time application & Witness Statement to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC). This will need to be carefully worded to maximise your chances of getting it accepted as very likely Swansea will object.

At the moment it's unclear what grounds you might be able to use on a WS & OOT. In particular did you receive a Notice to Owner prior to the 26th November 2023? The Swansea website implies it was sent.

You've mentioned an appeal. I assume you mean that you submitted representations to Swansea? When exactly and please post up the response.

You mention something left by the bailiff at you parent's house. Please post up that document.

You've mentioned the TEC? What's happened there? Did you submit something to the TEC? When and what exactly?

You can still submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time even if you pay the bailiff. And if successful you should get your money back. But you need to get on with it.

Hello,

Yes I meant £464. Upon reading your breakdown of the charges I can confidently say that the first I heard of this was at the ‘Enforcement Stage Fee’ I had received no prior notice of any other stages including the PCN surcharge. When I paid my fine via Swansea councils portal, the fee to pay was £70 and since then I haven’t received any information explaining I owed any more.

I understand with the Out of time application you have to write about your claim but I’m unsure what to word it as.

I have had to pay the bailiff the £464 fee to get them off my back and the enforcement officer said that I would have to go via the TEC for appeal process. I received no ‘letter of enforcement’ the first I’d heard off the enforcement was when they was at my front door demanding £354.

I will have to add another link of images with the documents I’ve received off the bailiff.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #13 on: »
Yeah, you're missing a lot of paperwork here. That makes it hard to give you good advice, because timing is crucial here.

If you don't pay a Penalty Charge Notice on time, they send you a letter called a Charge Certificate that increases the amount you owe by 50%.

You say that you paid them the £70 that was due. The council are saying it had gone up by that point, and you actually owed £105.

If you pay less than the amount that's due, the council are allowed to keep it as part-payment and chase you for the rest.

They registered a debt of £44 against you. That's the £35 they're saying you still owe, plus the £9 court registration fee.

The bailiffs got involved, and sent you a letter. That adds £75 onto the amount owed. That almost triples it, taking the total to £119.

The bailiffs had to come knocking on your door. That adds £235 in enforcement costs to the amount owed, tripling it again and taking it to £354.

If they visit you again and actually take steps to remove goods (your car), it will add another £110 on, taking you to £464.

They're saying that this is justified, because you missed the deadline to pay £70 by one day. We can't tell you if they're right or wrong, because we'd need to know the date of service on the Notice to Owner and the Charge Certificate - two pieces of paperwork that you don't have.

In fact, you seem to be missing a lot of paperwork. In addition to the Notice to Owner and Charge Certificate from the council, you should have an Order for Recovery from a court in Northampton and a Notice of Enforcement from the bailiffs as well. Sometimes post goes wrong and people don't receive one of these letters. But you're missing all of them.

You say your V5C is up-to-date and has the correct address, but when did you update it? The V5C should have a date of issue on the front page. Did you by any chance update it after September last year?

You should stop having back-and-forth emails with the bailiffs. They won't back down and it won't delay them from coming to visit you again. They have been instructed to collect a debt on behalf of a council, and they won't stop until they either get the money, or the council calls them off. Also, they don't need to give you any proof. Penalty Charge Notices are dealt with by a special court in Northampton. Unless you fill out a certain form and post it back by a certain deadline, the court automatically sides with the council and gives them permission to send bailiffs after you. This has already happened to you. The bailiffs have a warrant dated February 2024.

If I were you, I would phone the council. Act confused (but polite). Say you've paid it in full but you're still receiving demands. It's a gamble, it might not work. But you might get through to a nice person who's in a good mood that day and decides paying £70 a day late is good enough and closes the case, calling off the bailiffs. If that doesn't work, ask them to send you copies of the paperwork. You really need the dates for the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate and Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations (if it exists). The dates on these are crucial in determining whether you owed £70 or £105 at the time in question. They might be able to generate dated PDF copies from their computer system and email them to you. You might have to put in a GDPR Subject Access Request to find out.

Here's the thing - even if it turns out the council were wrong to send bailiffs after you for the extra £35, there's not a lot you can do about it. You'd have to ask the court in Northampton for permission to file your paperwork four months after the deadline. There is a form for that, but it's pretty hard to get it accepted and you only get one shot at it.

Hello,

When I paid my PCN via the online portal the only fee that was requested was £70. I had no knowledge of the £105 fee outstanding. The debt that was then registered against me I didn’t have any knowledge about it.

The first I have heard about this escalation is the stage where enforcement officer comes to my door. I have received no letters from the council, the TEC & the enforcement agency, hence why I am only now asking for support at this stage.

I haven’t received a letter from the court in Northampton, I think I might have worded the V5 section wrong. My V5 is correct I have a photo of it after using it to do my tax I will attach it along with other documents.

I will have to contact the council and request the data they hold on the PCN.

Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #14 on: »
Did you receive a Notice to Owner, prior to the 25th of November 2023 or not?
You say you appealed, I assume that means you wrote to the Council. Please post up the response.