Author Topic: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land  (Read 145 times)

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D D

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Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« on: November 19, 2023, 07:34:39 am »
Hello,

I have been parking outside this old derelict building for a few months now mainly more in front of it without any issues, there is an old private land parking notice sign (further down from where I was parked when this pcn was issued) but no council signage to be seen anywhere. This was one a night club that shut down before the covid pandemic.

To my knowledge this part where I was parked looks like a loading bay/area of the old building and not the highway.

I returned to my car after being there all day at 5:25pm to a pcn on the window, all the other vehicles where there all day also but nothing on their vehicles.

Hereís a link to the location to clearly see it in street view a loading bridge can been seen that links to this area.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/eZCV9cVw9B8Ajjbz8?g_st=ic

Personally i think the warden is trying his luck here, whatís your opinion on this PCN and recommendation on the challenge?

Many thanks
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 07:36:47 am by D D »

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D D

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2023, 07:38:46 am »
I checked the other vehicles for pcnís but nothing was issued.

D D

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2023, 07:43:41 am »
I even checked there the next day when I was passing at 5:30pm to see if theyíre starting to continuously pcn vehicles but nothing.

There is the train station a short walk away so a lot of people use this spot for skipping the £6.20+ a day fare at the near by ABCouncil parking lots.

John U.K.

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2023, 08:11:51 am »
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rwDxkRjbZ4fe12CN8

Presumably in a CPZ, but I can't find any map on Ashford's website.

If in a CPZ, please give us the operating times for it (should be on a sign where you entered the zone.

SYLs govern pavements, verges etc., but it looks as if you may have 'legitimate expectation.

Please post the back of the PCN (mistakes often in the 'small print') and any council photos.

----
EDIT
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Ashford/AS23.pdf
and
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Ashford/2020-CONSOLIDATION-ORDER-SEALED.pdf

would seem to indicate the SYL is 8am-6pm.

If it is not in a CPZ there should be an upright sign.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 08:50:59 am by John U.K. »
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Incandescent

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2023, 09:23:08 am »
They are actually double-yellow lines, so apply 24x7, and the cars seem to be parked on the driveway leading into the building and blocking the driveway. DYLs cover the whole road including footways and verges not just the carriageway. A driveway crossing a footway is also included. It seems to me that the OP is bang-to-rights, but could submit reps on the basis of legitimate expectation.
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John U.K.

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2023, 09:52:06 am »
@Incandescent
Quote
They are actually double-yellow lines,
May I respectfully disagree?
See
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=972.0;attach=3362;image
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rwDxkRjbZ4fe12CN8

both show SYL.
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Incandescent

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2023, 10:51:35 am »
@Incandescent
Quote
They are actually double-yellow lines,
May I respectfully disagree?
See
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=972.0;attach=3362;image
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rwDxkRjbZ4fe12CN8

both show SYL.
Sorry, yes, you're right. However, further along I did see what looked like a faded second line.
And here is the restrictions sign.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3ZbnDMofkBoCYFQG6
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 10:54:23 am by Incandescent »

H C Andersen

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2023, 11:03:30 am »
Which is correct but unfortunately for the OP somewhat academic as Apr 2023 GSV shows a no waiting traffic sign (Mon-Fri 8-6pm) slightly beyond where there were parked.

The OP didn't look for this because they thought they'd found an oasis of free parking. But sadly not.

Paying and chalking up to experience are probably the optimum outcomes.

Incandescent

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2023, 11:20:37 am »
I suspect the OP, like so many before him, was not aware that yellow lines cover the whole road from its centre line to the property line and include verges and footways, and also driveways that pass over them, not just the carriageway.
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John U.K.

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2023, 11:36:53 am »
That leaves 'legitimate expectation'.

According to
https://www.patrol-uk.info/authority_details/?pcn=KF&type=parking

Ashford should re-offer the discount if challenge is made (received by Council?) within the discount period.
Quote

If you make your informal challenge within 14 days of receiving the penalty you should still be able to pay the 50% discounted penalty charge if your challenge is refused.

Back of PCN may confirm.

If you decide to challenge, please to post your draft challenge here for commewnt before submitting.
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cp8759

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2023, 12:23:17 am »
This image shows why the PCN was issued:



Clearly the CEO took the view that whatever the status of the land further back might be, the front of your car was parked on the highway (the pavement and any vehicle crossovers are still part of the highway).

One obvious ground is that the timings on the PCN are all wrong, time periods run from the date of the contravention and not the date of service of the PCN. Please post up the back of the PCN, as that may reveal further issues.

For the avoidance of doubt, you should proceed on the basis that they won't make the same mistake as last time.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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D D

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2023, 01:17:18 am »
That leaves 'legitimate expectation'.

According to
https://www.patrol-uk.info/authority_details/?pcn=KF&type=parking

Ashford should re-offer the discount if challenge is made (received by Council?) within the discount period.
Quote

If you make your informal challenge within 14 days of receiving the penalty you should still be able to pay the 50% discounted penalty charge if your challenge is refused.

Back of PCN may confirm.

If you decide to challenge, please to post your draft challenge here for commewnt before submitting.

Yes please Iím definitely going to give this one a go. Iíll post a picture of the rear of the PCN.

D D

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2023, 01:19:11 am »

D D

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2023, 01:24:12 am »
Here is the back of the PCN

cp8759

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Re: Ashford Borough Council PCN on Private Land
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2023, 12:09:23 am »
Here is a draft representation:

Dear Ashford Borough Council,

I challenge liability on the basis of the decision in Branislav Baca v Portsmouth City Council (PO00033-2309, 17 November 2023) which you can access at LINK.

In light of that, the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to here but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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