Author Topic: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich  (Read 1915 times)

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I’ve made my mind up. I am just going to pay it and get this out of my life. I can’t risk it jumping to double the amount. I guess in future I don’t cross the junction until the road ahead is entirely clear and just ignore the honks behind me.

Your money, your choice.

All I can say is that I've seen slimmer chances win and more certain lose.
It isn't borderline that you stopped because of moving traffic...the bus was moving, forcing you to stop.
I reckon by looking at the video that there was receiving room had you chosen to use it and that is what an adjudicator will be looking at.
But although I think an adjudicator ought to give the benefit and cancel the PCN, cannot guarantee it
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I’ve made my mind up. I am just going to pay it and get this out of my life. I can’t risk it jumping to double the amount. I guess in future I don’t cross the junction until the road ahead is entirely clear and just ignore the honks behind me.
Now you know how councils farm such huge amounts of money from motorists; they know from experience that the motorists (90%+), fold at the first hurdle so always refuse any representation no matter how valid.

ok - youve help change my mind :)
I am going to fight it.
I will compose a draft now.

Quote
I will compose a draft now.

Post it here for comment first.

Just don't blame us if it fails.... there are no guarantees.

Two points to make.
You were forced to stop by a moving vehicle (the bus)
Once Stopped, there was receiving room but safety concerns (not knowing what the bus would do next) precluded you from continuing.
Don't prevaricate about the receiving room, the video seems to show enough space, that is all that will be looked at.

Post your draft before sending.
Don't miss deadlines.
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Don't forget in my mind (and I think cp8579) the strongest point which is that the video doesn't show you entering the box (you are already sitting partially inside when it commences).  Adjudicators consistently throw out PCNs when there is no evidence of traffic conditions as you first enter.

That's because legally the offence is committed at the point of entry, and the regulations are very clear that if any part of your vehicle is in the box that counts as being inside.  Hence even though you are only partially in the box when the video starts, that's sufficient.
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Greenwich parking are short staffed and don't defend cases which go to the tribunal.  They simply don't send in the paperwork, and the appeals are allowed*.

So it's worth a punt even with the flimsiest of cases [CP's argument is not flimsy].  Clearly Double or quits - but good odds!



* Since August 2023, 200 or so appeals have gone undefended. 

Only 2 have been refused.  I wonder if adjudicators were bored here and acted on the appellant's notes alone!
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Many thanks for your assistance.

I have taken all the points raised here (word for word in many cases) and have drafted the below:

Dear sir/madam

As can be seen on the video evidence, my vehicle did not enter any box junction at 3:29, in fact, the video evidence confirms my car had already entered the box junction at the start of the recording (3:28). Unfortunately the video evidence does not show the time of entry, which must have been before the start of the recording.
Furthermore, the video evidence shows that my exit is clear on entering the box. Space large enough to accommodate the vehicle can be seen beyond the junction markings.
My vehicle did not stop for stationary vehicles. I was forced to stop by a moving vehicle (the bus) cutting across the lane in front of me. The bus and my vehicle became static at roughly the same time. Also, in order to avoid an accident, I was forced to give way to a motorcyclist trying to squeeze through a gap in front of me.
Once stopped, the video evidence clearly shows that there was enough room ahead of my vehicle to clear the box, however, safety concerns had precluded me from making use of this space. I did not make use of the space ahead as a precaution against the bus cutting further over once the traffic began moving again.
As no contravention of entering a box occurred at 3:29, and as on entering further into the box, enough space to accommodate my vehicle can be seen beyond the junction markings, the contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur and the penalty charge must be cancelled.


Looks good to me.
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For the sake of keeping things simple, would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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That would be greatly appreciated! many thanks for offering!

I'll drop you a PM.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Many thanks to cp8759!

My appeal was granted!

"The Enforcement Authority did not attend, either by telephone or in person.

The Enforcement Authority have produced no evidence in this case and, in particular, have failed to produce a copy of the Penalty Charge Notice."

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hi cp8759
Please can you hide my name and car reg. thanks!