Author Topic: 2x PCN Royal Greenwich Millennium Way 47J - Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand- Lease/Hire  (Read 268 times)

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YoungDigga

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Hey seeking for some advise here

I received two PCNs for the following contravention - 47J - Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand (camera enforcement) at millennium way in royal borough greenwich. For anyone that has driven to north greenwich recently you will know there is an insane amount of road work going on there at the moment. All the usual pickup/dropoff spots are coned off and there are roadworks in the suggested car park location that the 02 suggest you use. I used to live around the area and I recall this so called  "bus stop" being a pickup/dropoff location. I was unable to the double yellow lines either side of this bus stop because they were coned off. I've never received two PCNs on the same day before but from what I've read they should be treated as one due to receiving these both at the same time. From searching the forum I've seen other cases where people received a warning notice first. I guess the council isn't obliged to issue a warning notice but this is a shame given the circumstances as not sure where else I could possible pickup/dropoff there. My car is on a long term lease but not sure I understand the technicality of transfer of liability here with leases. My lease company first notified me of the PCN via email and wrote a letter to RBG with a third party authorisation letter. I don't see a hire agreement attached and not sure if this valid without it as the letter simply says the vehicle is on a long term lease and has contract start and end date. Although they could have well sent the hire agreement and not included it in my copy. Also not sure if they are supposed to include a hire agreement with the PCN that is then sent to me but I never got one but seems like this is specific to private PCNs. Lastly, from what I understand the original PCN should be cancelled and a new one be issued to me. I have a PCN addressed to me that was posted which has the same PCN # etc how can they prove they canceled the original PCN? It seems like they've just reissued the same pcn but addressed to me. I would like to contest the PCN but not sure what angle to contest it on there are few basis I see as a ground for appeal but not sure what the strongest point is. PCN docs listed below. Let me know if there is any other information required.

Also happy to upload copies of the documents including the PCN number and Reg if needed.

PCN1


Notification
Original PCN
Third Party Auth
PCN Reissued
Video

PCN2


Notification
Original PCN
Third Party Auth
PCN Reissued
Video
« Last Edit: February 22, 2024, 03:45:11 pm by cp8759 »

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cp8759

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The easiest way to get rid of these would be to challenge the transfer of liability. The council will never accept anything you say but if you just make a representation asking them to cancel, that will get the notice of rejection that you need to take it to the tribunal.

As far as we are aware Greenwich doesn't send a notice of acceptance to hire companies, but I would contact them anyway to check:

Dear hire Company,

In respect of PCNs XXX and YYY, please would you confirm if you have received any correspondence from the local authority since requesting a transfer of liability?

Yours faithfully,
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

YoungDigga

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Awesome thanks! Just sent this to the hire company and will look to do an appeal which as you mentioned will most likely get rejected.

Is there any way for these to be treated together either through tribunal or to get one cancelled out as they were both issues on the same day? or do I just need to appeal them both waiting for the rejection and go through tribunal for them both independently?

taffer87

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cp8759

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You need to make representations against each PCN individually, but at the tribunal stage you can appeal up to 4 rejections on a single appeal.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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YoungDigga

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Okay so I got the notice of rejection is there a template or another post you can point me to in order to best challenge the transfer of liability at tribunal?

YoungDigga

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This is what I've got so far

Quote
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to appeal the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to me on 06/02/2024 for 47J - Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand. I believe that I have grounds for appeal based on the fact that the liability for this PCN should not lie with me, but rather with the owner of the vehicle, [insert name of leasing company].
As the lease holder of the vehicle in question, I contest the transfer of liability to me for the following reasons:
1. Failure to provide evidence: There is no evidence to suggest that I was driving the vehicle at the time the PCN was issued. Without such evidence, it is unfair to hold me liable for the penalty.
2. Breach of contract: The terms of my lease agreement with Mercedes-Benz Finance do not make provision for the transfer of liability for PCNs to the lease holder. Therefore, I believe that the transfer of liability in this case constitutes a breach of contract.
3. Non-compliance with regulations: My lease agreement does not satisfy the requirements set out in The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000, which state that a statement of liability signed by the hirer must be included in any lease agreement where the owner of the vehicle seeks to transfer liability for PCNs to the lease holder. As such, I believe that the transfer of liability in this case is invalid.
In light of these points, I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled.
Thank you for taking the time to consider my appeal. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Yours sincerely,

How does this sound?

taffer87

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Okay so I got the notice of rejection is there a template or another post you can point me to in order to best challenge the transfer of liability at tribunal?

Please post the pics of the notice or rejection

Usually you should do the Tribunal appeal online and request in / person or telephone hearing and just say "I rely on my formal representations and will provide further detail on review of the council evidence bundle". Then wait for evidence bundle as they could just decide not to contest
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YoungDigga

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YoungDigga

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Posted the notice of rejection. Let me know if my template is okay to use as looking to get this send out asap before we head into easter. Nearing the 28 days period

taffer87

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Okay so I got the notice of rejection is there a template or another post you can point me to in order to best challenge the transfer of liability at tribunal?

Please post the pics of the notice or rejection

Usually you should do the Tribunal appeal online and request in / person or telephone hearing and just say "I rely on my formal representations and will provide further detail on review of the council evidence bundle". Then wait for the evidence bundle as they could just decide not to contest

Plz follow the above if you want to appeal to the tribunal (and lose the discount).

The current appeal you have is incorrect.

After using the standard one line type appeal above - see if the council submits an evidence pack and then upload that here for more detailed advice from seniors

A lot of times the council just doesn't contest at all and does not submit an evidence pack so people don't look at this in more detail until then.

YoungDigga

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Thanks taffer. Just submitted appeal online with the one liner "I rely on my formal representations and will provide further detail on review of the council evidence bundle" as suggested. It also asked me to select grounds for appeal and only logical one that made sense was "I was not the owner of the vehicle". Will update here once I hear back.

YoungDigga

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Okay so I have a date for my appeal 23rd May 2024 at 15:30 at London Tribunals, Chancery Exchange, Ground Floor North, 10 Furnival Street, LONDON, EC4A 1AB

It looks like I can receive the evidence up to three days prior to the hearing which is cutting it fine. Do councils usually wait this long before deciding they don't want to contest or submitting?

Also it didn't give me the option to attend virtually but I might request to attend via telephone as my partner is pregnant and due on the 19th May so don't want to chance having to attend this in person. Is there any reason why I wouldn't want to do this?

See pdf attached:
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Incandescent

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I think most London Tribunals adjudications are done over the phone now, although others on here may have the exact figures. The Traffic Penalty Tribunal now do video adjudications using MS Teams so I suppose you could say London Tribunals are behind the times.  However at least London Tribunals offer an on-line searchable register of decided cases, called the "Statutory Register", where you can look for cases similar to yours.
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cp8759

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Okay so I got the notice of rejection is there a template or another post you can point me to in order to best challenge the transfer of liability at tribunal?
@YoungDigga did you write to the hire and if so did you get a response?

Also I'm not sure we've seen a copy of your representations to the council?

In all honesty if the council contests the appeal your best bet is to ask one of us to represent you.

In the meantime I'm also going to try and find out if their CCTV cameras are properly certified.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 05:01:27 pm by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order